uastarflyer

How about a mid 20's person thumping the back of my seat for 4.5 hours ORD-SMF last week? "Air drumming" to some inane music in his MP3 player.

to the "kids shouldn't fly" masses - sorry. I paid as much $$ for my child as you did and 9/10 times my child behaves as well or better than you. She is also a more profitable ticket to the airline. Hopefully the 10th time is when you're seated in my vicinity

Jenbel

uastarflyer I'm not sure what your point is. How does that connect to the behaviour of a child? Yes, it must have been very annoying, I presume you asked the PIQ to stop? But you could do that since it was an adult. It's really hard for a stranger to ask that of a child, they usually have to ask it of the parents and if the parents are unwilling then you get a situation like what seems to have happened here.

I think my point was that kids can be good or bad on planes, and that parents can affect their children's behaviour probably 70-90% of time (I'll accept arguing about what that threshold is, since I just made those up ). So I would expect the kid to be restrained for at least some of the flight, particularly with two parents there to divert, prevent, amuse etc. If they didn't, couldn't or wouldn't, then it would seem to speak oceans for those parents. And just because I seem to be disapproving of one (or two) parents lack of control of their offspring, doesn't mean that I am criticising you or your child in any way (unless you were the mother in question ). It would be a bit like me taking umbridge to your 20 something person's behaviour as a reflection on my behaviour.

Analise

100% agreed. I've travelled with my 3 year old niece and her mother. My sister-in-law brought plenty of things to entertain her daughter for the cross-country flight. My niece did begin to kick the seat in front of her but her mother noticed right away and told her daughter that if she kicked one more time, she would stay with grandma and NOT go to Disneyland with the rest of us. And guess what, it worked. She didn't kick anymore. Then my sister in law complimented her about how she was acting like a big girl and thereby reinforced the child's good behavior.

I'm really getting tired of parents who abdicate responsibility as a parent on a plane. There is no excuse for letting a child disturb others like that.

[This message has been edited by Analise (edited Jan 05, 2004).]

SkiAdcock

I think letiole summed it up nicely, as did the post right above me.

I don't hate children, and I don't subscribe to the "they should never fly, let's sprain their ankles, feed them to the alligators, cause a scene myself (well, ok in the that teensy sweentsy not serious mild episode I posted a few posts up that I was kidding on) theories.

And I'll buy into they're not going to be perfect 100% of the time. But the mother said she felt sorry cuz the child kicked the seat back for 3 hours. She can & should have controlled, diverted, etc, the child for some or most of the trip.

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Sharon

Mountain Trader

What does a parent do? The same thing a parent should always do: Get the child ready for the situation he/she is being put in, and if the child isn't ready, don't go forward. I travel with my dog all the time and before his first flight, we spent hours getting him ready. Now, most of the time the other passengers don't even know he's onboard. I think most 3 year olds can be similarly assimilated, and if one can't, then that child is not ready to fly.

You have no fundamental right to impose on other passengers with a child who isn't ready to fly in an orderly manner, which does not include kicking the seat constantly.

Train the kid or rent a car. Being a parent is a job description, not a genetic tracing exercise.

rkt10

And a heartfelt apology to you by the mother would certainly be in order.

kef0913

While I (as a parent of two young children) agree with most of you saying the parent should control the child (my kids happen to know how to behave on a plane thanks to flying practically since birth), I do have a couple of thoughts, hopefully to put things in perspective for people on both sides of the issue:

1. Any child gets antsy after long periods of sitting. Adults do too, we have just have more freedom in our movements (I am talking about the freedom of getting up and down, not seat pitch) on board a plane and have seats designed for us.

2. Adults have a greater understanding of why they need to sit still and therefore more patience for it. Couple this with a child's innately short attention span (educators usually estimate 1 minute for each year of age for direct focus of a child's attention) and you can begin to understand why it is harder (but not impossible) for a young child to sit as still as some might like them to.

3. On my last flight I had a 50ish business man behind me who felt the need to stand up 6 or 7 times on a 1 hr commuter flight. Each time he stood he propped himself up using my headrest. Sometimes he missed the headrest and used my head. He seemed put out when I gave him an annoyed look after the second head smashing. All the while my four year old sat next to me eating her snack and coloring in her coloring book. My wife sat across the aisle with our 9 month old who "flirted" with the passenger behind her. Who would you rather have traveled with in this case? The business man or the kids?

Am I lucky that my kids do well? Sure. Did my wife and I put a lot of effort into ensuring that our kids had things to do and were well behaved. Sure? Is it possible on another flight one of them might have a melt down? Sure. Is it likely? No. Is it likely the business man will have exactly the same rude behavior on his next flight? Definitely.

While I agree that it is definitely every parent’s responsibility to keep your child occupied and well behaved, even the most conscientious of parents may have an occasional child meltdown to contend with. Even the best kids are sometimes ill mannered. The ease with which many air travelers blame a horrible flight on a child (sometimes rightly and sometimes not) while not complaining about equally offensive behavior from adults makes me wonder about the childhood of those complaining. No one wants to listen to a screaming child or feel a kicking one for 4.5 hours but I suspect that some people assume when they see a child that they will be annoyed at some point during the flight (which becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy) while they would ignore equally offensive behavior from an adult.

That’s my two cents. I’m off my soapbox now. Feel free to flame me.

fredmartens

Amen. It's obvious that there's some folks who don't understand the extremely basic concept that:

Your rights end the moment you start infringing on someone else's.

This thread comes up repeatedly and as always, gets off topic wildly with attempts made to defend ill mannered children by twisting the issue to several side themes, including:

"Gee, the kid can't help it". Yes, they can and will, but it takes parents with the fortitude to teach them right from wrong.

"All kids do that". No, most of them don't act like that. Another B.S. excuse. Copout.

Or, the defensive and pointless "You must hate kids / You must not have any" retort. No. Most of us love well behaved kids and their responsible parents...read the posts. There's a major difference. And the "We don't have any" blast, so we couldn't possibly understand? We chose not to, just like you chose to. So act responsibly and don't make us suffer with your choice(s).

Or, "they're just being kids". More garbage.

Last, we get the old and stale "I've seen some adults act worse". Well, if so, start a thread on that; quit evading the issue by trying to twist it into something irrelevant. There's a "worst seat neighbor" thread going if you'd like to ring in on adult behavior.

It may very well be that some people won't mind their seat getting kicked, but I'd bet most adults do mind it...very much. The passion with which this point is repeatedly argued on FT is evidence enough of that.

When you're trying to work, sleep or stay on task at home, and your kid comes in and repeatedly kicks your chair or your bed, do you allow that? Oh, they don't do that? Wonder why not? Maybe because then you'd correct them since the effects of the behavior are happening to you?

Sad to say, but this topic will probably be back by March or April again with basically the same complaints and accusations thrown around; rather than solve the problem, irresponsible parents keep playing the denial and blame game instead of owning up to the fact that they consciously won't control their children.

bmr12

Having travelled with my daughter multiple times as a toddler, here are some easy suggestions:

• Take off the kid's shoes. It isn't nearly as much fun when the child is smashing his or her toes into the seat. That usually stopped it quickly, as they don't have the coordination or forethought to kick with the ball of their little feet.
• Get the kid to spend some time sitting with legs crossed or on their knees. Mine still eats half the time on her knees even though she's plenty big enough to sit on her bottom, so it isn't nearly as uncomfortable for little ones as adults.
• Distract the child with some new activity. While some might claim this is a reward, for me it is about stopping the behavior first; we'll deal with being spoiled someplace else where the tantrum won't disrupt twenty or forty strangers.
• Physically hold their feet down. This usually makes the point if they are kicking in a distracted (rather than deliberate) manner.

I only spent about three minutes thinking, so if mom really had 4.5 hours, she had ample opportunity to come up with more if she had really wanted to try.

JodieD

Oldpenny, I just wanted to say "Thank you". On our last visit to the US with my 2 and 5yr old boys we took 6 flights and on every single one at least 1 person remarked on how well behaved they were. My husband and I work hard at teaching our boys right from wrong and respect for others so it is greatly appreciated when it is noticed.

As for the topic at hand, I agree with the above poster who observed that preparation for such a trip starts long before you get on the plane. Yes, every child has a bad day but good preparation on the part of a parent (including the teaching of good old fashioned manners!) goes a long way.

born sleepy

how about growing a spine and telling him to stop?

BingoSF

To the point of good preparation being the key to pleasant flying, I wholeheartedly agree...

I have three sisters, two of whom are over 10 years younger than I. During each summer, my family would travel SFO-BOS and back. Rarely (actually never) did we ever have more than 2 or 3 seats together. That gave me ample opportunities to be the "parent" in these situations. Since *all* of us had been disciplined from birth in the ways of right and wrong, I never had a problem. When one of my sisters would begin kicking, I told them "no" and Voila! they stopped. We didn't even lug around a whole arsenal of playthings. The number of complements my mother received over the years was staggering. And, for the most part, we've all ended up being well adjusted young women

RobotDoctor

I would have not felt bad for the mother. I would have scolded her for her lack of consideration for the person in the seat that her child was kicking. If I were that person, 4 or 5 kicks would have been it before I intervened. If the seat was empty, same thing as the vibration would affect the people in the window and aisle seats.

Both my kids travel a couple of flights a year, in general. They are 7 and 5. My children know that kicking a seat WILL NOT BE TOLERATED!!!!!!!!!! My kids have been on 3 to 4 hour flights. My wife and I ARE parents regardless of time of flight. The mother's reply about not able to be a mother on a 4.5 hour flight is plain pathetic. Period!

RobotDoctor

My wife and I prepare each of our kids a backpack full of things to keep them entertained for flights of up to 8 hours (each way). We buy them books, coloring books and other new items that will excite them. They know about them and are excited for the flight, as they cannot play with these things until after takeoff. Additionally, both my kids know that if they misbehave, they loose the new things. This has worked since my kids were as young as 3. When they were 2 or 3, my wife or I read a lot of children’s stories and I played Barbie with the oldest, Beanie Babies with the youngest.

It is all about planning and knowing what sparks the interests of your children. For that part, I thank Mrs. RobotDoctor as she is brilliant in learning these things and allowing me to ride her coattails.

Gman3

My 2 cents as an airline employee. I love kids but do not have any. It is the parents repsonsibility to control THEIR children the WHOLE flight. If you can not get your child to stop kicking, you take them out of the seat and walk them to the back for a break. There is no excuse for a child to keep on kicking the passenger's seat on the flight.