Air Marshalls
 

What do these people do during a long flight? I assume they can't drink or sleep. Can they watch a movie? I'm guessing no, because they are supposed to be watching the cabin, not sitcom reruns.

They just sit and stare (and maybe read) for a long overnight flight across the Atlantic?

I have yet to ID one, but everytime I see someone reading a book, drinking no alcohol, siting aisle seat I suspect he/she is one.

My alohol consumption is part of the cover; otherwise you've got me pegged!

I sat next to one once, it was a short flight, only a little over an hour. He acted typically enough, rested his feet on the bulkhead and rested his eyes for a few minutes, read, went to the lav, talked to the FA, talked to me, stuffed a wad of tobacco in his mouth. He was sitting in row 1, so he certainly wasn't watching over the cabin like a prison guard. I didn't notice how closely he watched during boarding.

Saw one board another flight, but as he wasn't sitting near me, I don't know how he occupied himself.

are you serious?

Near the end of the flight, maybe more like a "pinch" than a "plug", but he was getting his smokeless fix.

That stuff is great for helping you stay awake and alert.

I guess you weren't on Delta. Smokeless tobacco is not permitted.

It's also just as dangerous and addictive as cigarettes.

I wasn't going to lecture the guy on his personal habits, he had a gun! http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttr...orum/smile.gif

It was USAir, I'm not sure if they have any rules about it, tho I don't recall it being part of the standard spiel.

"Federal law prohibits the consumption of tobacco products including cigarettes, cigars, pipes, and smokeless tobacco products while on board."

Will they add this to the so-called Safety Briefing any minute now...?

Meanwhile, to return to the thread topic, I don't think air marshalls should use smokeless tobak while on board. I just wouldn't feel safe http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttravel_forum/wink.gif

Is chewing tobacco and spitting it out "consumption?" Is gum next?

DJK7: How did you know the pax next to you was a marshal - typically, they don't announce it. And the one you saw boarding a flight, same question - holster bulge, air marshal badge? I'd be interested to know...

DJK7: How did you know the pax next to you was a marshal - typically, they don't announce it. And the one you saw boarding a flight, same question - holster bulge, air marshal badge? I'd be interested to know...[/QUOTE]
The first one ( not the one I sat next to), I'm not positive about, but pretty sure. He was at the FC ticket counter while I was in line, he opened his wallet to show the agent and I could see a badge. There was also an airport cop standing there chatting with him. He and the cop headed towards security, I was about 2 minutes behind and I didn't see the guy there, I think the cop bypassed him around security. When I got to the gate, about 50-60 min before flight time, the gate agent was letting him on the plane. I couldn't tell where his gun was, but he was wearing loose "commando" pants with about 10 pockets scattered all over. I didn't see him after that.

On the next occasion, it was an originating flight, I was the first passenger to board, no one had gotten on the plane for at least 20 minutes prior to this. When I got on, there were two guys standing in the aisle talking, when they saw boarding had started, one took a seat in coach, the other one took the seat next to me in first. He was dressed pretty casually, but with a blue sportcoat that looked out of place. Big bulge on the hip under the coat, both times he got up during the flight, he caught the gun on the corner of the bulkhead. Once when he was returning to his seat, I got a clear look at it. I didn't see the other guy again, about all I remember of him was that he wasn't wearing a coat or jacket.

"Some" of the questions asked above are answered by an earlier post that I did in the FT Trip Reports section....some unfortunately are not. http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttravel_forum/wink.gif

Best wishes, Dave

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum81/HTML/003734.html

Flew IAD-LAX with a pair of AM's. They took the front row on a 757. It had been blocked. We were in row 2.

Both read books and drank sparkling water. Talked with FA's and used restrooms. Neither ever spoke to the other, or acted like they knew each other.

The male carried a bullet launcher above his left hip, the female had hers in the small of her back. Both guns were easily and frequently seen.

I suspect that I saw two on the DL shuttle from BOS to LGA. I was on a status mile run and had just flown up from LGA and was the last off the plane. I was the first to board at the gate in BOS (same eqp as had just flown up on) - yet they were already on board, and were having a pre-flight briefing with the crew. I was clearly on sooner than they would like.

The two SMs took seats (unassigned on DL shuttle) 3C and 2D. They didn't talk with each other at all during the flight. One helped a lady get her bag in the overhead bin (his weapon wasn't exposed to me during this maneuver, but I was on the left (in 4D), I suspect his weapon was on his right.

Both were white men, in their mid 30s, in decent shape. Both wore large windbreakers - certainly out of season for December 30th!

Both read paperback books and drank water. Anytime someone moved towards the front of the plane, they put their books down.

Upon arrival in LGA, they walked together, but not talking, to a payphone. One called somewhere, the other stood by.

I highly doubt air marshalls use pay phones.

I think the Get Smart shoe phone is much more appropriate for this super-secret, ultra high-tech division of the fabled TSA.

With the cuts in meal service, they can no longer use rock-hard dinner rolls as weapons.

Here is my question (really trying not to sound sarcastic - )

Why is this this a fascination to you - the Federal Air Marshall Identification?

I seriously would be interested to know why the spotting of a FAM is important or special to passengers.


I, would rather they remain anonymous - but that's just me - - -

I think threads like this should be deleted. This is obviously divulging sensitive information about FAM methods and operations.

I respectfully disagree.

Air Marshalls should in no way be positively identifiable by passengers, either by dress, actions, or weapons showing.

It is very easy to get jackets tailored to nearly eliminate the bulges caused by pistols, and a little care on their part would prevent such giveaways as catching the pistol on the bulkhead or having one's shirt/jacket riding over it to expose it to plain view. Ask any undercover narcotics cop.

If these were air marshalls, they were being quite unprofessional. Give me a vice cop with an ankle holster and ten years experience in a big city any day!

And I don't want them on the plane at all.

I'm all for identifying the marshals on the flights. They create more danger to the pax by bringing a gun on board than they provide safety. They should not be permitted to steal another pax's seat and they should never be seated in the premium cabin. Until the marshals are unarmed and seated in coach on a seat-available basis (or better yet, just left at the gate), by all means share information about them and their habits.

Today's air marshal was seated in the last row of coach on the aisle where he belonged. He was armed, however. http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttr...orum/frown.gif

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"Give me Liberty or give me Death." - Patrick Henry

The terrorists or the marshals?

Nothing mentioned here is secret insider info on the AM program. If casual observation by the regular flying public can identify some AMs, that should be exposed so that the people running the program can improve training and procedures as needed.

I agree with Spiff and others who feel the value of the program is out of line with the costs. On the flight when I sat next to one, I remember feeling at the time that his presence on the flight didn't make me feel any safer at all. In fact, after observing and talking with him a bit, images of Barney Fife from the old Andy Griffith show came to mind.

Here's an interesting hypothetical--if the guns (or ammo) of an air marshall are so visible, what's to reassure the pax that this is a legit air marshall and not some terrorist ready to hijack the plane.

Seriously, if I saw a pax with a gun, I'd probably try to discreetly express my concerns to a crew member. If it was a cop, FBI, etc., the situation can be easily resolved by the law officer showing his/her badge. But air marshalls are supposed to be "under cover," right?

For a more extreme example, the standard air marshall response to a disturbance seems to be to stand near the cockpit door, point their weapon at the pax, and make everybody sit still. How do the pax know that is not a hijacking? In the post 9/11 era, it seems we've all sworn to sacrifice our lives to thwart the next attack--what's to prevent a bunch of flight-93-minded pax from storming (and being killed by) an air marshall?

It seems that some really ugly incidents are inevitable under this program.

Good points...

If nobody knows what the air marshall's badge looks like, whose to prevent a bunch of terrorists from dressing like air marshalls?

I'm thinking they should come out with something truly unique here - so that if they do appear on your flight, you know it's legit.

A little story.

I have a freind who flys for United. She told me that during their briefing with the Marshall, that he said "If there is a situation, you had better hit the deck, cuz if I have to, I am gonna shoot right through you!"

She walked off that flight!

Too many John Waynes in that bunch.

And now PILOTS WITH GUNS! Yipes!

Sir,


[This message has been edited by k9dude (edited 06-09-2003).]

Sir,
The only reason I registered with this site is so that I may address the stupidity of your post. I will not go into a diatribe as to the lack of validity of your statements, however I would simply remind you as to which event resurrected the Federal Air Marshal program. My guess is you are a frequent flier that on more than one occasion were unable to upgrade to first class and thereby were knocked off your high horse when you were forced to sit with “the common folk” in coach. Of course the Air Marshals who are there to prevent another horrific event such as 9/11 from reoccurring are the source of your problems, so let’s do as you say and leave them at the gate. Since you have problems upgrading, why don’t you invest fifty cents and BUY a newspaper. That way you can read what’s happening to the airline industry. People are STILL afraid to fly. Airlines such as Southwest and ATA are the only ones profiting. One day that unarmed person sitting in the back of the plane may very well be you as there may be nowhere to upgrade. DEAL WITH IT!!

No! I will not just "deal" with this, because I am not a mindless drone who follows somebody else's idiotic directives on how to make the aircraft safe by bringing more guns on board!
I am opposing US Air Marshals sitting in First Class because they absolutely do not provide any more security to the flight by occupying the high revenue seat, that either a paying customer (paid First) or a loyal customer (upgrade) may take.
To add to this, in the way the Air Marshal program is in right now, I am opposing it as a whole, as AMs in the States do not seem to receive proper training (except for making up stories who they may be), and will not provide any true defense to the pax and the crew should the necessety arise.
I do not want to be a witness to this stupidity, when AMs with guns are placed on flights to make the little old granmas FEEL safe, I have more common sense than this. I will protest this in any way I can, by expressing my opinion in writing to me Congressman, Senator and the airline representatives whenever I can.


[This message has been edited by asnovici (edited 06-09-2003).]

Sir, take your feel good security and stick it ... well, where it might feel good because that is the best chance anyone has from benefiting from it. If you had any idea what you were talking about, you would know what a failure the air marshall program has proven to be since it was enhanced after 9-11.

Personally, I would feel much safer if these muscle-headed idiots were not on a flight with me. They have been known to leave their 'weapons' in airplane lavs and on occasion, have even discharged those weapons in the lavs or left them behind for other passengers to f..ind. Clearly they are not capable of handling this type of 'equipment'.


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"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Ben Franklin

I ask this as someone who's pretty ignorant about the AM thing:

Would y'all who object to the current AM program be in favor of one that trained its operatives like El Al does? Additionally, are El Al's changes in cabin structure a necessary component to this? (I assume other airlines are somewhere between US and Israel, but dunno.)

I recognize that there's also a different El Al approach to terminal security, but thought that the AM issue might be separate.

Blah, Blah, Blah.

Same old song.

Don't like my attitude? Too bad. Deal with it.

Don't let the door hit you . . .

The most effective Air Marshal programs are the ones that the public doesn't know for sure exists at all.

A public program that states "we will put an FAM in First Class on every flight" serves no purpose other than to assure the execution of every First Class passenger by a dedicated hijacker.

I don't think we need any operatives onboard, untrained like the FAMs or trained like El Al's.

All we need to do is keep people out of the cockpit. If hijackers can't get in, we don't need a wild west shootout with air marshals and pilots spraying the cabin with bullets, killing more civilians than terrorists.

September 11th was able to happen - not because we didn't have a lot of guns onboard that could fall into hijacker's hands - but because we had a "comply with hijackers" policy. On four of the five flights that were hijacked, that's what happened; just like the book told the crew to do. On the fifth flight, pax took action. Unfortunately, they didn't find out about the other hijackings early enough, or they wouldn't have given up control of the plane in the first place, and they'd likely still be alive.

d

You would probably be surprised to hear that pretty much every airline out there still has this policy in place.

I've worked extensively both directly and indirectly with developing and reviewing airline security procedures and I assure you that in virtually all situations (with some like 9/11 being conspicuous exceptions), the best way to handle them is compliance with demands.

Hijackers and terrorists are liars, people with no honor who drag innocent people into their violence.

I support the policy of the US govenrment to not negotiate with terrorists.



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"Give me Liberty or give me Death." - Patrick Henry