Touchy touch and go
 

Friday morning as my flight from BNA to DTW was attempting to land and after the back wheels have touched down we suddenly go into a steep ascent.

During our circle the pilot says over the PA something to the effect, "Sorry for that last landing attempt folks, we found out there was another plane on the runway!" http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/eek.gif

I had three friends with me, one who hasn't flown in 14 yrs and only once then and the other 2 are infrequent flyers. They were all very shook up by this.

Anybody got experience with this. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/mad.gif

It happens on occasion, and my while never a lot of "fun," it's better than the alternative. Worst part is usually how long it takes to return to the landing que and try again.

Has happened to me twice, both within one week. One time, landing in PIT. We were within a few hundred feet of landing when suddenly the pilot pulled up violently and I felt like we were zooming off like a spaceship. Turns out the plane before us had not cleared the runway as fast it should have.

We circled and came back to land in another 15 minutes. The other time, four days later, was not quite as violent.... It was an interesting experience, and as posted, I'm glad I was in the air rather than on the ground running into another plane!

Ordinary go-arounds are no big deal and are neither infrequent nor dangerous. However, the situation described in the base note--the writer claimed that the wheels were actually on the runway--would be unusual if indeed it happened that way. My guess is that the writer may have mistaken the attitude and power shifts (from low power for landing to full-power for a go-around) for contacting the runway.

They can be quite surprising though. My latest was coming back from Europe on a 747 and when they lit up all four for a last minute go around it snapped everyone out of their long flight torpor.

Once, on PeopleExpress, landing in JAX about 17 years ago.

My dad was on an ORD-DEN flight a few years ago in the winter and was listening to channel 9. They were doing go-arounds for awhile because of limited runway operations because of snow. While on final approach, the captain aborted the landing, did a go-around, and made a comment to ATC along the lines of "Next time, if you could get the snow plow off the runway..." and subsequently channel 9 was shut off. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/eek.gif

Had one about two weeks ago coming into PIT on US. We were about 50 feet above the ground and basically took off again. We never got the reason why from the cockpit.

It was late at night and certainly woke me up for the drive home! You get a real feeling for the sheer power that the engines have when you go throught this! If memory serves, I think it was a 737.

I was lucky enough to be in the cockpit of a CX 747-400 attempting to land in a rainstorm at JFK. The preceding aircraft didn't appear to have quite cleared the runway and the pilot called a go-around at the last minute.

As another poster stated, the worst part of the affair is the lengthy delay being resequenced for landing. After flying over the southern part of Queens, we headed back out over the Atlantic for several minutes before being vectored back into the pattern.

It has happened to me a couple of times.

First time was landing in Seattle on an SAS DC-10 (obviously several years ago). SEA was fogged in and we had been diverted to Edmonton where we sat on the ground for a few hours. When we finally got to Seattle we circled for an other hour and then attempted to land. Then main gear was on the ground when suddenly the engines roared and we shot back up.

The captain came on the PA and explained that he had "overshot" the runway and that the fog had now gotten worse and he wouldn't be able to make another landing. We were told that we were now heading for Portland where we were supposed to wait out the fog.

All of a sudden we started descending however, and the captain said there was a "hole" in the fog and "he was going to give it another try". It was extremely foggy and I couldn't even see the wing tips, but he made a perfect landing and we all let out a sigh of relief.

You haven't lived until you've had this experience in a 757!

We were landing in Vegas, and I remember looking out the window at the Luxor Hotel. All of a sudden, the pilot gunned the engines and pulled us into a very steep climb - and then we rolled off to the right. I have never heard an aircraft SCREAM like that before. It was quite obvious that the throttles were slapped wide open. Some people were screaming, and one of the overhead bins opened. The FAs came around and asked if everyone was ok. A small aircraft had rolled onto our runway.

The 757 is a Porsche, trust me!

Thanks for everyone's input to this very distressing incident.

Wideman - I can assure you that the back wheels were on the ground when we began our climb, I was sitting just above where the back wheels were and have never mistaken the sensation of actually being on the ground during landing.

To continue this thread, the other members of my travelling party are still talking about this and have discussed contacting SWA to file complaints. What does everyone believe the likelyhood of being issued certs as a penance may be?

I can't see any reason for trying for or expecting money/certs/freebies. That would be like asking for a refund due to turbulence.

Given the alternative, I would say the pilot/airline did what was proper and probably what ATC told them to do. Nobody (at least outside of some navy pilots I know http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif) does this kind of thing for fun or to annoy the passengers.

Complaints about what? Not slamming a fully loaded 737 into another aircraft at 150 mph?


Why anyone would even think of asking for a refund/credit/voucher for something that was completely out of SWA's control (and, as LEB said, considering the alternative...) is beyond me.

Please tell me you were kidding?


[This message has been edited by SuperSlug (edited 07-03-2001).]

The airline has no control over the condition of the runway. It would fall into the same as category as being delayed for weather(fog, snow, etc.).

Also I don't think that the airline should be chastised because of a error made by the air traffic controllers. Look at the other option the pilot had: slamming into the other plane at 200 mph and sending your airplane into somersaults for the rest of the bloody fireball of a ride down the runway.
I doubt you thought to take the time to thank the pilot for potentially saving your life on your way out of the plane. You may have been consumed by your greed and the misconception that you deserved some kind of compensation for the experience, as frightening as it may have been.


[This message has been edited by Peregrine (edited 07-03-2001).]

I have to say that I've never experienced this in a couple of hundred thousand miles of flying but it sounds like the kind of experience I'd like to have. Once.

99+% of flying is just like sitting on an uncomfortable chair in a waiting room. I'd like to have just a *little* excitement once in a while.

Mike

And, on top of that, WN does not hand out vouchers like candy.

On Planebusiness.com I read about this lady who frequently complained to WN (now we have an official term for that -- serial complainer!) Herb wrote her a letter that said:

"Sorry to hear about your bad experiences with Southwest. We'll miss you.

Herb"


Now THAT'S the way to deal with serial complainers! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif

I have had go arounds for an aircraft on the runway just before landing and for Air Force One still being on the tarmac. The Air Force situation was relatively easy since the wheels were down and we were still a mile or so away but the other experience was a real treat (just before touchdown). I think I should have asked the White House for certs for being late to my son's soccer game. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

Mikey-I have had an emergency for suspected fire (bad indicator) at DCA where I had a nice chat with the firefighter on how often they get called out each year. We had an emergency decompression near NYC where we did an emergency landing at LGA with high cross winds (I got a voucher unasked from this one). All on the same airline. Maybe you want to join me?

[This message has been edited by biggs (edited 07-03-2001).]

Thanks for all of your feedback.
Your comments have helped me to discern how to approach my friends who were tavelling with me.

I'll tell them, regardless of how stressful this may have been to them, they are greedy and serial complainers and will be missed by Southwest. Two of them, have a combined total of 1 flight in 14 yrs. Of those guys, one is in the hospital right now with heart complications from his MD, would you rather tell him, or shall I? NO THE LANDING LAST FRIDAY DIDN'T GIVE HIM THE BIG ONE, but he is nonetheless still there with tubes stuck in him.

I simply asked a question. If you want to slam an unknowing member, please refrain.

Thanks for your kind responses, for those of you that did. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

I didn;t see anyone slamming you personally - just that to this group of frequent fliers , your request seemed out of line. I think the poster who told the story about Southwest was mostly trying to make a point about southwest and how unlikely it was that they would give a voucher. The fact that a number of people gave you honest feedback is hopefully what you wanted?

And in my book if you are implying your friend had a heart attack indirectly because of the stress of the flight that is a pretty serious accusation in its own right. FLying i s not totally without risk and while this must have been a very frightening experience, it does happen and mostly no one gets compensated for it...
edited for my usual bad spelling




[This message has been edited by squeakr (edited 07-03-2001).]

I don't want to put words in JS' mouth (and apologies if I am), but there was a thread here recently about someone being referred to as a "serial complainer." I took his post above as a reference to that, not as the personal slam you seem to have inferred.

Also, the reference to someone being "missed by Southwest" was similarly anectdotal. I doubt you'd hear that from Chairman Herb about one complaint.

Your traveling companions are understandably upset. You, being someone with more traveling experience, should simply point out to them that Southwest doesn't really bear any responsibility for what happened.

Sorry to be so un-emotional, but that's a fact.

Well said, SuperSlug. Mr1hotrod, I'm not trying to flame you; my apologies if it appears that way. The thread about serial complainers is:

Serial Complainer?


Also, Herb won't write a curt letter like that for just one complaint. Unless that story is urban legend (considering Herb, probably not!), I would imagine you would have to complain to Southwest several times before that could happen.

Anyway, I just don't see how Southwest could possibly be considered responsible for this kind of incident (or any airline). A letter to the FAA could be in order.

I disagree.

mr1hotrod,

You can go ahead and file a complaints to both the FAA and the airline, but I doubt very seriously that you are going to profit from this, unless you consider a form letter of apology an appropriate reimbursement.

That's my opinion, but go ahead, you may get a couple of free drink coupons, who knows?

Making it clear that I mean no personal offence to mr1hotrod, this whole discussion is absurd. While it is understandable that a person who seldom flies may find a routine go-around discomforting, talking about compensation etc is ludicrous. If we were talking about compensation if the pilot DID NOT go around, with whatever consequences that might have, it would make more sense for sure http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif
Many unseasoned fliers, or even seasoned ones who have a fear of flying, worry about many events that happen while in flight. I've had people sitting near me getting worried with the noise of the gear coming up or going down, for example.

Let's put it this way: Say you are riding in the back of a NYC cab and the guy up front is driving like a bat of hell(hard to imagine, I know). He is doing his usual 50mph down 7th at 3:00 in the afternoon trying to get you to LaGuardia before rush hour. The tires screech as he slams on his brakes to avoid a truck that backed into the street. You tumble around in the back seat because, aside from ignoring Joan Rivers' gracious advice, you forgot to buckle your seatbelt. You are unhurt but shaken. The driver proceeds as if nothing had happened. You complain but he responds in broken English and gives you a card with the customer service number.

Do you call the company and demand compensation for your brush with death?

Or do you dismiss it as part of riding in a NYC cab a half hour before rush hour?

[This message has been edited by Peregrine (edited 07-04-2001).]

Mr1HotRod's complaint is exactly why I stay clear the hell away from WN and the types of passengers it attracts.

I don't really have any basis in fact to ground this statement on, but I'll say it anyway:

From what I've read, stories I've heard, and from what I've seen, Southwest pilots are the best "pure pilots" in the business. Other airlines operate far more complex craft then WN, and their pilots are much more reliant upon computers (not that that's a bad thing). WN goes out of its way to hire people who are naturally gifted in this area.

Takeoff and landing are the two most dangerous times during a flight. I don't think I'm too far off the mark in saying that the average 20-year WN pilot has far, far more experience than a 20-year pilot on most other airlines. They simply get more practice due to their point-to-point route structure.

Besides the fact that I don't have figures to back up my statements, don't you think I make a convincing arguement? Don't put your life in another man's hands until you've thought through the risks! You're entrusting him to make life and death decisions for you, and it isn't win/lose/draw. If you leave the plane alive, he has done his job. I strongly suggest that people who can't accept this stay off of planes.

This is NOT necessarily directed at the original poster, as I don't know all of the facts in his/her particular case.

[This message has been edited by SpuddBrother (edited 07-04-2001).]

I have had two aborted landings but none in the last ten years.

OTOH, regarding the 757...MAN, that baby is EXCITING on a full-power takeoff!

Leaving Spokane a few years ago I was pressed back into my seat and the plane seemed like it was standing on it's tail! After leveling out, the captain used the PA to say something like "...and that's what an inadverdent full-power takeoff feels like in a 757..."

Inadverdent or not, it was a blast! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif

RAD

mr1hotrod--This incident might give you some assistance. A couple of years ago, I was on TWA heading into St. Louis. As we were landing in heavy rain, and within about 20 feet of the ground (I was in a window seat watching), the pilot suddenly gunned the engines and we took off upward. They apologized, and said another plane had not cleared the runway sufficiently. We circled, came in for a landing again, and this time AGAIN aborted the landing while about 200 ft. off the ground. Pilot apoligized again, said he didn't like the look of the runway in front of us. Finally, on the third time, we came in for a nice, smooth landing.

What did I do regarding TWA after this unsettling event? I shook the hands of both pilots as I departed the airplane, and thanked them for watching out for our safety.

Djlawman

The one and only go-round I experienced was on a US 737-300 into DCA from the South. We got over the threshold and noticed we were a little high. Just as I said that, the engines were gunned, the plane pitched up, and we made our way back up. Being at the exit row window, the only thing going through my head was the 14th Street bridge. It was really odd, because it actually felt like the pilot was fighting to get the thing to climb and go back up, you could tell he was actually flying the plane. Needless to say, there was a plane at the far end of the runway who was taking his time clearing. We circled around and still landed 10 minutes early.

In 40 years of flying, I have had five aborted landings, two very hard landings, and two aborted take-offs. I can say without reservation that as I walked off each one of those incidents that we were lucky to be there. Pilots in your country, and thank God mine, are trained to be the very very best and my thoughts are that they ought to be rewarded for hauling a lot of souls skywards and away from certain death.

As a Lufthansa captain said at Dusseldorf after a very heavy landing in a 727

"Every landing is a good landing"


Paul

Paul -

You have the point exactly right.

I've heard the phrase "Every landing you walk away from is a good landing."

This situation is different from those, such as an emergency decompression, where there could arguably be airline culpability for the uncomfortable situation. Plus, people are commonly injured in decomps (ear injuries, bloody noses, etc.).

In this situation, pax should just be thankful for the skills found in the hands of the pilots. Those skills, combined with ice cold nerves, more than their fair share of smarts and thousands of hours of practice are what separate them from bus drivers.

Greg

I've been onboard for 2 go-arounds and 2 aborted takeoffs. One of the go-arounds was in a Midwest Express DC-9 into SAT; the other was in an AA F100 into MCI. SAT was because the guy in front of us took a longer-than-expected rollout. MCI was during a storm and we circled for 15 minutes until weather settled a bit. In both cases I still got to my end destination on time and I was quite thankful that the pilots valued our safety more than the on-time landing. A go-around isn't that discomforting anyway, so it seems goofy that these Southwest pax are whining about it.

The aborted takeoff is a more unnatural sensation - going from 0 to 140 and back to 0 in a matter of a few seconds. Both of the times this happened to me were because a cockpit indicator showed one of the doors in the plane to be open. The FA's rechecked the doors, we taxied back to where we started, and took off. Again, even though the doors were probably closed, I'm glad the pilots didn't take any chances.