lhrsfo

I don't think you can blame engine performance issues on Boeing - and such things are very common in the industry. Another Boeing product I know, but look at the continuing engine issues on the 787 which are still causing grief. Different engine supplier also.

84fiero

But don't forget 737-800 is still in production so WN isn't out of 737 options, even though that doesn't match the performance specs of the MAX.

I'd bet there isn't much chance the MAX issues cause Boeing to be at serious risk of complete failure. Though it may be financially hurt for awhile and there could be major shakeups and changes within the company - especially the longer this drags on and/or if something occurs (or is revealed) that kills the MAX entirely. It's a shame we only have the one domestic airliner producer nowadays.

GUWonder

Boeing's not going to disappear because of the MAX issues. They have enough other business and are also so embedded into work for the US government that they won't be allowed to disappear for quite some time and then some. Bankruptcy reorganizations are more realistic than a liquidation, but if it goes that way I would expect that it would be more of a strategic move than a desperate and sudden move.

edgewood49

I agree however they do have common issues "engines and their placement". BA has been pushing the envelope on engine design as well. All one has to do is turn to RR and the AB380 ( which I enjoy flying on ) Yes it is a different engine company but

edgewood49

Everyone that has commented on my post regarding Max and China I agree with you. However the BRAND is forever tainted no one can deny that statement. God forbid there is another event causing loss of life, even years from now lawyers will feast on the issues BA caused by their stupid decisions. Look I am a combat vet/former USAF driver I love BA but I am very disappointed of late. I also agree that US based pilots are the best trained in the world, although of late the pilot shortage concerns me. Nothing like a lot of seat time, I know my butt is flat

Fly safe all CK SX

chipmaster

What is the worst case here, continued delay how long? BA shuts down the line and writes off how much additional billions, and lose all that cash flow. The other production jets aren't the cash cow that the 737 was/is, how do they fund 5-10 year projects ?

Global321

Denied! People have short memories.

Do you remember the Qantas Airbus A380 grounding? ("Aircraft engineers in Australia have called for the entire worldwide fleet of Airbus A-380 super-jumbos to be grounded after cracks were found in some wings."). A380 is flying and nobody is worried about it.

Yes, this is different, as there were two crashes, but, if this is solved this year or next, it will become a distant memory. And if it is all solved - and it is an if - the MAX will be among the safest aircraft in the world. The scrutiny that is being done on this "recertification" is unprecedented. No one is taking BA or FAA word for anything. And everyone is double-checking everyone else's work.

Boeing financials remain very strong. More cash this year than last year... $1.5 billion more. Why would Boeing stop 737 production? Worst case scenario, they scrap the MAX and produce the other versions of the 737. Not the same money. Not the same profits, but a solution for the next 5 years until the 797 is ready or whatever the replacement of the 737 will be.

Boeing is much bigger than just 737-MAX production. The defense contracts are huge. Boeing is not going anywhere, include bankruptcy.

YuropFlyer

Boeing won't go bankrupt over the MAXimum crash chance aircraft. At least not in the short run. But unless they find a magical fix for it, and make it airworthy again (which I can't see right now - you can't fix a technically flawed plane by software 100%) they'll be forced to take many billions of damage (all the produced MAX so far..) - and I doubt they got an insurance for that. How many were produced so far? About 800? At about what per piece? 100 million USD?

That would be 80 billions.. Boeing currently is worth 194 billion USD at the stock market.. so we're close at 50% of the companies value that are at risk. Not even considering penalties if Boeing can't deliver at all, and the penalties they'll having to be paying out.

Whats their airplanes available that are allowed to fly? The old-age 747? Much less popular than the superior A380. And even the A380 wasn't accepted in the market widely enough. The 777? Old and can only compete with the A350 over the price. The 787? Expensive and still having a bad brand from it's fires.

Airbus on the other hand? Got a great choice of narrowbodies in next-gen configuration, a cheap long-haul next-gen airplane (A330) and an awesome, newly developed long haul airplane (A350) - with their A380 staying the king of the skies for the time being.

And with COMAC pushing hard into the market, Boeing won't have much of a chance if they keep missing a reasonable narrowbody. And with the C919 being cheaper AND better AND available on short notice compared to old-age 737-800, Boeing won't even be able to sale in the "available without 4000 orders before the next A320 NEO is ready" segment.

edgewood49

I beg to differ with you There have been TWO crashes all leading back to BA more and more flaws are coming out just this week Kelly @ SW on CNBC said that yet another flaw appeared. I believe people will ask far longer than you may think. And frankly they have a right to.

edgewood49

A portion of "value" has to do with the Brand and Boeing has tainted that for all a long time.

Look at what the current management has done, first they took years to take a well oven airframe (767) to convert to a new tanker for the AF it even took an act of Congress to forestall AB's submission.
787 batteries ok, not a direct issue with BA other than AB uses the same type of batteries ( I like the 787 )
MAX
777X again we have issues regarding the engines again BA engineers are pushing the envelope on engine design. GE is the maker of these but I submit designers are getting "out there" with the new massive fans, witness RR Trent in the AB another prime example of pushing design

Just saying all

GUWonder

Never say never, at least when it comes to bankruptcy in the US. In the US an entity can go into bankruptcy and still operate.

I have no doubt that if Boeing management found it materially worthwhile to declare bankruptcy and use a bankruptcy filing as part of a strategic plan to continue operations and get restructured under US bankruptcy protection -- so as to get ahead of already incurred inabilities getting in the way of it still being a going concern of some sort -- then Boeing would do so. Boeing is nowhere close to doing that at this point at least.

I am relatively certain that at this point there is no way the USG would let Boeing collapse in any sudden and disorganized way. If that were to be where Boeing was at, Boeing would quickly end up with a bunch more domestic and foreign government contracts to keep it on life-support.

COSPILOT

Oh where to begin... 787 is doing well, as is the 777 orders. 747 not so. MAX orders are still strong. Short of some National Enquirer magazine you might be reading, where do you come to these conclusions?

YuropFlyer

The 787 is terrible in Economy (since most opt for 9 abreast) and pax that get a choice will avoid it. It might be now "save to fly", but oh boy did it take time (and a long flight ban!) and Boeing won't make much money out of it for a LONG time to come..

The 777 was a very good airplane, and still is a reasonable well aircraft, but it's not the same class as the A350, not close. While more expensive than the A330..

As said, Boeing isn't dead yet, but unless they come up with a airworthy narrowbody aircraft SOON, they'll be in serious, very serious, trouble.

COSPILOT

GUWonder

I would say that Boeing has been in far more serious trouble before than it is in today. It's mix of revenue and its position in select markets are such that it's not going to disappear anytime soon, and certainly not just because of the MAX issues -- especially not when the MAX planes aren't at as great risk of having more disasters while they are grounded as they are.

At various times, people start foretelling the death of Boeing and of Airbus. And yet the interests involved won't let them disappear and then they come back with yet more planes that sell.