Jul 20, 2019, 7:49 pm
737-Max 8 safety concerns
Jul 20, 2019, 5:39 pm
#421
Suspended
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Watchlisted by the prejudiced, en route to purgatory
Programs: Just Say No to Fleecing and Blacklisting
Posts: 102,095
The parents of the grandniece are suing Ethiopian Airlines, Boeing and Rosemount Aerospace; and they are also suing the FAA.
Given the situation with these planes, it’s entirely reasonable for those harmed to use the courts to go after the parties they think to have been jointly and severally liable for the harm caused the victims of the plane crashes and the loved ones of the victims.
If a consumer advocate was opposed to litigation and a safety-based crackdown on a plane that clearly has such serious remaining safety concerns that they are pulled out of service like they are, I would wonder what had made the consumer advocate to become an anti-consumer advocate and biased in favor of Boeing, Rosemount and the FAA.
Given the situation with these planes, it’s entirely reasonable for those harmed to use the courts to go after the parties they think to have been jointly and severally liable for the harm caused the victims of the plane crashes and the loved ones of the victims.
If a consumer advocate was opposed to litigation and a safety-based crackdown on a plane that clearly has such serious remaining safety concerns that they are pulled out of service like they are, I would wonder what had made the consumer advocate to become an anti-consumer advocate and biased in favor of Boeing, Rosemount and the FAA.
Jul 20, 2019, 8:15 pm
#422
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: 42.1% in PDX , 49.9% in PVG & 8% in the air somewhere
Programs: Marriott Ambassador Elite, UA 1K, AS MVP GLD 75K, DL Pt
Posts: 1,086
Agreed the market has been it's own mindset lately traditional patterns actions/reactions have not played well of late. Boeing certainly is one glaring case, but then remember there are only two major plane producers in the world capable of heavy metal. It will also be interesting to watch the 777X as she winds her way through the approval process, much as the Max she carries much larger "fans" which like the Max's are having some issues delaying flight testing.
Then there are some reports that AB has similar issues with it's latest long range single isle bird, appears both are pushing the envelope on engine size/ placement.p
I still love the 747 !
Then there are some reports that AB has similar issues with it's latest long range single isle bird, appears both are pushing the envelope on engine size/ placement.p
I still love the 747 !
From what I learned the larger fans didn't fit under the 737 ( 777x unknown ) without enough clearance due to the lower height of the airplane and inability to redesign the landing gear etc. etc. waterfall solution/result move the engines forward, that result in a change in the central lift/balance/propulsion under extreme corner flying conditions, solution/result is to install complex additional software that activates at the flight envelope to counter some risky plane characteristic. Now all that likely would have been fine if BA had been explicit in informing the pilots of the change and putting sensors in the plane enabling quick de-activation, but why didn't they, because it would result in longer certification, more pilot training higher cost and pushed schedules bad for airlines, bad for BA, so here we have BA reputation tarnished beyond belief, 5 billion charge and likely just the tip of the iceberg in firings/resignations. Hard to predict where the bottom is, in February most were optimistic the plane would be flying by third quarter at the worst, now its 2020, what new issue will be discovered, a total FUBAR at B
All complex designs discover things late in the development cycle not known or vetted earlier but the decision to accept a compromise by bolting a big engine on a plane designed 50 years ago in moonlanding era and piece mealing new things is consistent with us going to the moon again and selecting the Saturn V and original landing/capsule with a few bolt on fixes. No reasonable engineer would take this approach but the merger of Boeing and McDonnell Douglas created a non-focused BA and here we are another FUBAR.
Jul 21, 2019, 2:05 am
#423
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 545
Ralph Nader is the nations foremost consumer protection advocate and a pioneer in the field. His viewpoint is high relevant even if he himself had died in the crash and sent his ghost.
Move on from that mindset of aiming to undermine people rather than discussion of the topic at hand. It’s one of the biggest cancers in public discourse in this country and it’s why we are becoming the worlds most backward rich industrialised nation. We apparently can no longer tolerate harsh truths. Such a mentality is literally deadly at this point. If we don’t fix it, we’re going to start declining in exports of the few industrial products where we still have a position- because no one else will trust our safety processes.
Jul 21, 2019, 8:17 am
#424
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Mountain Time Zone
Programs: AS Million Miler/Marriott Lifetime Titanium/ IGH Ambassador
Posts: 5,990
The size of the "fans" engines was in itself not the issue, larger fans are part of the key design for higher efficiency.
From what I learned the larger fans didn't fit under the 737 ( 777x unknown ) without enough clearance due to the lower height of the airplane and inability to redesign the landing gear etc. etc. waterfall solution/result move the engines forward, that result in a change in the central lift/balance/propulsion under extreme corner flying conditions, solution/result is to install complex additional software that activates at the flight envelope to counter some risky plane characteristic. Now all that likely would have been fine if BA had been explicit in informing the pilots of the change and putting sensors in the plane enabling quick de-activation, but why didn't they, because it would result in longer certification, more pilot training higher cost and pushed schedules bad for airlines, bad for BA, so here we have BA reputation tarnished beyond belief, 5 billion charge and likely just the tip of the iceberg in firings/resignations. Hard to predict where the bottom is, in February most were optimistic the plane would be flying by third quarter at the worst, now its 2020, what new issue will be discovered, a total FUBAR at B
All complex designs discover things late in the development cycle not known or vetted earlier but the decision to accept a compromise by bolting a big engine on a plane designed 50 years ago in moonlanding era and piece mealing new things is consistent with us going to the moon again and selecting the Saturn V and original landing/capsule with a few bolt on fixes. No reasonable engineer would take this approach but the merger of Boeing and McDonnell Douglas created a non-focused BA and here we are another FUBAR.
From what I learned the larger fans didn't fit under the 737 ( 777x unknown ) without enough clearance due to the lower height of the airplane and inability to redesign the landing gear etc. etc. waterfall solution/result move the engines forward, that result in a change in the central lift/balance/propulsion under extreme corner flying conditions, solution/result is to install complex additional software that activates at the flight envelope to counter some risky plane characteristic. Now all that likely would have been fine if BA had been explicit in informing the pilots of the change and putting sensors in the plane enabling quick de-activation, but why didn't they, because it would result in longer certification, more pilot training higher cost and pushed schedules bad for airlines, bad for BA, so here we have BA reputation tarnished beyond belief, 5 billion charge and likely just the tip of the iceberg in firings/resignations. Hard to predict where the bottom is, in February most were optimistic the plane would be flying by third quarter at the worst, now its 2020, what new issue will be discovered, a total FUBAR at B
All complex designs discover things late in the development cycle not known or vetted earlier but the decision to accept a compromise by bolting a big engine on a plane designed 50 years ago in moonlanding era and piece mealing new things is consistent with us going to the moon again and selecting the Saturn V and original landing/capsule with a few bolt on fixes. No reasonable engineer would take this approach but the merger of Boeing and McDonnell Douglas created a non-focused BA and here we are another FUBAR.
Jul 21, 2019, 10:21 am
#425
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: 42.1% in PDX , 49.9% in PVG & 8% in the air somewhere
Programs: Marriott Ambassador Elite, UA 1K, AS MVP GLD 75K, DL Pt
Posts: 1,086
When I commented about the "size" I was including all the unintended consequences of hanging those engines which as we all know now was fatal. It's sad for the people that have died, the workers at BA, and this country. I still contend there needs to be a complete investigation, firings and maybe criminal charges IF warranted.
People make mistakes all the way up the line on the BA from the engineering, the program manager to the VPs and CEOs on this one, Firing only makes sense if they were really incompetent or malicious
Are you a parent? if you are do you fire your kids when they make a mistake? Similar to the sad tragedy on the cruise line with the toddler death. It'll be interesting to see what the parents say on the TV tomorrow, is it a learning reflection or will the lawyers have a carefully subscribed script for the parents.
Jul 21, 2019, 10:46 am
#426
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: ATL Lost Luggage
Programs: Kettle with Kryptonium Medallion Tags
Posts: 10,306
An interesting article: Barrons - How Much Boeing Stock Is Worth If the 737 MAX Never Flies Again (July 17, 2019)
Jul 21, 2019, 10:49 am
#427
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Mountain Time Zone
Programs: AS Million Miler/Marriott Lifetime Titanium/ IGH Ambassador
Posts: 5,990
Criminal is a hard one, here in the US we are fixated on blame and punishment, instead of learning, understanding/learning and widely sharing that learning. The first step in that is open sharing of the problem and how it happened, when that is covered up or not addressed the sad follow-on is just like the timeline of things with the MAX FUBAR.
People make mistakes all the way up the line on the BA from the engineering, the program manager to the VPs and CEOs on this one, Firing only makes sense if they were really incompetent or malicious
Are you a parent? if you are do you fire your kids when they make a mistake? Similar to the sad tragedy on the cruise line with the toddler death. It'll be interesting to see what the parents say on the TV tomorrow, is it a learning reflection or will the lawyers have a carefully subscribed script for the parents.
People make mistakes all the way up the line on the BA from the engineering, the program manager to the VPs and CEOs on this one, Firing only makes sense if they were really incompetent or malicious
Are you a parent? if you are do you fire your kids when they make a mistake? Similar to the sad tragedy on the cruise line with the toddler death. It'll be interesting to see what the parents say on the TV tomorrow, is it a learning reflection or will the lawyers have a carefully subscribed script for the parents.
I think we all including myself have beaten this subject to death.
Jul 21, 2019, 5:46 pm
#428
Join Date: May 2009
Location: South Park, CO
Programs: Tegridy Elite
Posts: 5,678
Criminal is a hard one, here in the US we are fixated on blame and punishment, instead of learning, understanding/learning and widely sharing that learning. The first step in that is open sharing of the problem and how it happened, when that is covered up or not addressed the sad follow-on is just like the timeline of things with the MAX FUBAR.
People make mistakes all the way up the line on the BA from the engineering, the program manager to the VPs and CEOs on this one, Firing only makes sense if they were really incompetent or malicious
Are you a parent? if you are do you fire your kids when they make a mistake? Similar to the sad tragedy on the cruise line with the toddler death. It'll be interesting to see what the parents say on the TV tomorrow, is it a learning reflection or will the lawyers have a carefully subscribed script for the parents.
People make mistakes all the way up the line on the BA from the engineering, the program manager to the VPs and CEOs on this one, Firing only makes sense if they were really incompetent or malicious
Are you a parent? if you are do you fire your kids when they make a mistake? Similar to the sad tragedy on the cruise line with the toddler death. It'll be interesting to see what the parents say on the TV tomorrow, is it a learning reflection or will the lawyers have a carefully subscribed script for the parents.
I do agree we're much too concerned about blame instead of learning in our culture in general. The industry should, and will, learn and grow from this - commercial aviation is generally good about that (albeit not perfect). But it's also not unreasonable to hold some people accountable if it's found to be necessary. It will be interesting to see how it all turns out in that regard.
Jul 24, 2019, 1:37 pm
#429
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Cambridge
Posts: 63,608
I think Boeing is being very foolish if they're not placing some HUGE orders for additional simulators to be built and ready to ship.
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/ar...or-max-459764/
After taking a massive loss, Boeing is now contemplating shutting down 737 Max production. Every week they remain shut down costs more than paying for simulators to be delivered for free to the airlines.
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/ar...or-max-459764/
July 18, 2019
Speaking during Textron's second quarter earnings call on 17 July, CEO Scott Donnelly says a simulator training requirement could come later.
"It looks… to us like it's probably going to be a requirement that allows [pilots] to get back and flying," Donnelly says of potential 737 Max pilot training regulations.
He cites a possible "transition course" for the first pilots, possibly referring to training that focuses on how the 737 Max differs from earlier-generation 737NGs. That training is also called "differences" training.
"Then [it] would mandate actual Max sim training later on," Donnelly adds.
....
But, some observers note, requiring all 737 Max pilots to train on the relatively small number of available 737 Max simulators could take many months, further delaying the aircraft's full return to service.
Donnelly says Textron has "certainly had quite a number of inquiries from customers who are interested" in acquiring 737 Max simulators
The company has already delivered the machines to Boeing and "several 737 Max customers", he adds.
Speaking during Textron's second quarter earnings call on 17 July, CEO Scott Donnelly says a simulator training requirement could come later.
"It looks… to us like it's probably going to be a requirement that allows [pilots] to get back and flying," Donnelly says of potential 737 Max pilot training regulations.
He cites a possible "transition course" for the first pilots, possibly referring to training that focuses on how the 737 Max differs from earlier-generation 737NGs. That training is also called "differences" training.
"Then [it] would mandate actual Max sim training later on," Donnelly adds.
....
But, some observers note, requiring all 737 Max pilots to train on the relatively small number of available 737 Max simulators could take many months, further delaying the aircraft's full return to service.
Donnelly says Textron has "certainly had quite a number of inquiries from customers who are interested" in acquiring 737 Max simulators
The company has already delivered the machines to Boeing and "several 737 Max customers", he adds.
Jul 24, 2019, 2:58 pm
#430
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Mountain Time Zone
Programs: AS Million Miler/Marriott Lifetime Titanium/ IGH Ambassador
Posts: 5,990
I think Boeing is being very foolish if they're not placing some HUGE orders for additional simulators to be built and ready to ship.
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/ar...or-max-459764/
After taking a massive loss, Boeing is now contemplating shutting down 737 Max production. Every week they remain shut down costs more than paying for simulators to be delivered for free to the airlines.
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/ar...or-max-459764/
After taking a massive loss, Boeing is now contemplating shutting down 737 Max production. Every week they remain shut down costs more than paying for simulators to be delivered for free to the airlines.
Jul 24, 2019, 3:09 pm
#431
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Colorado
Programs: UA Gold (.85 MM), HH Diamond, SPG Platinum (LT Gold), Hertz PC, National EE
Posts: 5,652
I think Boeing is being very foolish if they're not placing some HUGE orders for additional simulators to be built and ready to ship.
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/ar...or-max-459764/
After taking a massive loss, Boeing is now contemplating shutting down 737 Max production. Every week they remain shut down costs more than paying for simulators to be delivered for free to the airlines.
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/ar...or-max-459764/
After taking a massive loss, Boeing is now contemplating shutting down 737 Max production. Every week they remain shut down costs more than paying for simulators to be delivered for free to the airlines.
Jul 24, 2019, 4:17 pm
#432
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: 42.1% in PDX , 49.9% in PVG & 8% in the air somewhere
Programs: Marriott Ambassador Elite, UA 1K, AS MVP GLD 75K, DL Pt
Posts: 1,086
Jul 24, 2019, 7:20 pm
#433
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Mountain Time Zone
Programs: AS Million Miler/Marriott Lifetime Titanium/ IGH Ambassador
Posts: 5,990
Jul 25, 2019, 2:42 am
#434
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: SAN
Programs: Nothing, nowhere!
Posts: 23,300
I think Boeing is being very foolish if they're not placing some HUGE orders for additional simulators to be built and ready to ship.
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/ar...or-max-459764/
After taking a massive loss, Boeing is now contemplating shutting down 737 Max production. Every week they remain shut down costs more than paying for simulators to be delivered for free to the airlines.
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/ar...or-max-459764/
After taking a massive loss, Boeing is now contemplating shutting down 737 Max production. Every week they remain shut down costs more than paying for simulators to be delivered for free to the airlines.
Jul 25, 2019, 7:45 am
#435
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Mountain Time Zone
Programs: AS Million Miler/Marriott Lifetime Titanium/ IGH Ambassador
Posts: 5,990
Gary Kelly CEO is on CNBC now and he stated Boeing has found yet another issue and Max will be grounded through the end of the year. Not too new however this can of worms gets worse