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Is Premium Economy an awkward middle ground?

Is Premium Economy an awkward middle ground?

Old Mar 9, 2019, 10:45 am
  #31  
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Originally Posted by evergrn
For TPAC flights, in general the Y:PE:J ratios would be 1 : 2 : 6 for price, 1 : 1.5 : 6 for the seat footprint.
At least that's been my observation.

Based on this, PE offers the worst value. Airlines are ripping people off with PE revenues, and airlines know it.
But it's not as simple square footage of space. For many people, the most valuable inches of space in a seat are the 33rd through 38th inch - the difference between torture-Y and not-quite-torture-Y. For some people, the value of the 39th inch through 60th inch (or whatever J provides) is less important. Other people want the full lie-flat seat and are happy to spend what it takes to get J.

Since PE is still a new-ish thing, airlines are going to try to market it and capture 2x the Y revenue where they can. If passengers think this is a ripoff, then they'll have empty seats and need to adjust the pricing. Time will tell whether this happens or not. If PE is included in enough corporate travel policies, that'll keep yields propped up - just like they did for J and F for decades.
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Old Mar 9, 2019, 4:05 pm
  #32  
 
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Originally Posted by pinniped
But it's not as simple square footage of space. For many people, the most valuable inches of space in a seat are the 33rd through 38th inch - the difference between torture-Y and not-quite-torture-Y. For some people, the value of the 39th inch through 60th inch (or whatever J provides) is less important. Other people want the full lie-flat seat and are happy to spend what it takes to get J.
But that's pretty much my point. All I want is a seat that's 18.5-19" wide with 34" pitch that you don't have to pay PE price for. I don't necessarily need 38" pitch. But other than JAL and a few other ones, you won't find such thing. So if I can't deal with your typical 17" wide 32" pitch seat with 1.5" armrest, then the only other option I can afford is PE. But PE is 2x Y price for 1.5x Y seat real estate. So the airlines rake in a lot more per sq m from PE than from Y, which means PE represents poorer value to the customer. Some people may find every inch of the extra space so valuable that they might think paying x2 the amount is totally worth it. Then there's me who will do PE reluctantly knowing that I'm getting ripped off because I'm just not in a mood for sardine can. Regardless, it's still the case that PE is generally overpriced relative to Y.
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Old Mar 9, 2019, 4:13 pm
  #33  
 
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Originally Posted by strickerj
it’s hard to stomach paying twice as much or more for a service that still has “economy” in its name.
For sure.

I will often do PE (even as I realize I'm getting ripped off) if:
- my trip is >12hr flying each way
- price is no more than 2x economy
- price is max $1500-$1600 round-trip (perhaps little higher if I'm flying alone, but I usually fly with my family)
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Old Mar 11, 2019, 6:45 am
  #34  
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Originally Posted by evergrn
For TPAC flights, in general the Y:PE:J ratios would be 1 : 2 : 6 for price, 1 : 1.5 : 6 for the seat footprint.
At least that's been my observation.

Based on this, PE offers the worst value. Airlines are ripping people off with PE revenues, and airlines know it.
Considering that J pax get very enhanced catering and amenities, lounge access, more miles, etc, one could argue that biz class is good value for the money. For award travel, J is an exceptional value.

However, there are so many people (like me sometimes) who can't tolerate the Y torture but could never afford to pay for J. Hence the demand for PE, and airlines take advantage of that demand.
I'm sure the maths is correct, but this analysis misses the value propositions.

Each class gets you there in one piece at pretty well the same time. So they all offer identical essential characteristics. The equation is all about the marginal improvements which PE and J offer over Y. The first six inches of extra legroom and 2" of extra width are very important to a large number of people. Leaving aside the flat bed, the extra legroom and width in J, the better (but still not great) meals, the lounge access (which many FFs have anyway), the earlier boarding etc. simply don't hold nearly enough value for anything approaching the price difference. The bed is the key and arguably is essential for a serious business trip, but not for a two week holiday.

The correct analogy is choice of car. A Dacia is perhaps Ryanair, but a bottom of the range Kia will get you safely to the shops, the office or the other end of the country. So will a Golf, but the Golf is twice the price, yet (in the UK, at least) massively outsells the Kia. And then you can buy huge Mercedes for six times the price which will do all sorts of things which the others can't but yet a small number of people buy them. It's all about the marginal value.
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Old Mar 11, 2019, 12:04 pm
  #35  
 
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I have purchased WT+ on BA a couple of times. Both times, I paid to upgrade a WT ticket at the airport.

In terms of cost, I found this to be a little more reasonable than buying the WT+ tickets outright. I'm not particularly tall at 5'8" or large at 160 lbs but I do enjoy the slightly wider seat and the smaller cabin. I wouldn't pay much more than a few hundred dollars for the product, though. To me, the biggest benefit of any kind of upgrade is seat width to get a little more elbow room and to avoid having to fight over armrests. The greater the width, the more likely I'm willing to pay more money.

I agree with the other poster that mentioned this cabin appealing more to business travelers who have policies forbidding company-paid J travel. It doesn't make much fiscal sense otherwise.
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Old Mar 11, 2019, 12:40 pm
  #36  
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Originally Posted by evergrn
But that's pretty much my point. All I want is a seat that's 18.5-19" wide with 34" pitch that you don't have to pay PE price for. I don't necessarily need 38" pitch. But other than JAL and a few other ones, you won't find such thing. So if I can't deal with your typical 17" wide 32" pitch seat with 1.5" armrest, then the only other option I can afford is PE. But PE is 2x Y price for 1.5x Y seat real estate. So the airlines rake in a lot more per sq m from PE than from Y, which means PE represents poorer value to the customer. Some people may find every inch of the extra space so valuable that they might think paying x2 the amount is totally worth it. Then there's me who will do PE reluctantly knowing that I'm getting ripped off because I'm just not in a mood for sardine can. Regardless, it's still the case that PE is generally overpriced relative to Y.
Well, it's hard to argue that it's a ripoff if they're honest about the seat's dimensions and the booking engine makes it clear what's PE and what isn't. Airlines are trying different things even within PE - including some that have 40+" of pitch and 19-20" of width. I think what you're saying is that your ideal product would be cheaper but closer to coach. Airlines are hoping there's a market out there for more expensive and closer to "long ago J". Since they can't feasibly put 6 different cabins in one plane, they're going to take their market research and pick what they think will sell the best. 5 years from now, it may evolve.
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Old Mar 11, 2019, 3:06 pm
  #37  
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Originally Posted by State of Trance
PEY isn't awkward at all and fills an important niche. There are many people including myself who are willing to pay for better seat and service than Y, but do not feel the need to pay the much steeper price of J all the time...
Couldn't agree more. I've flown VA PE to/from Down Under three times (round trips, total six flights) and have BOS-NRT booked in JL PE for next month. It hits a "sweet spot" between being squeezed into an economy seat and breaking my budget. I might feel differently if I had a bunch of anonymous stockholders unknowingly funding my J class travel, but I don't.

Originally Posted by eigenvector
Here's the problem I have with premium economy. I recently booked two trips to Europe, from Vancouver to London and Paris respectively. In each case, the fare options were something like this:

Economy: $700
Premium Economy: $2500
Business $3500 ...
My experience to Australia and Japan, covering four trips over several years, has been the opposite. The upgrade to PE was reasonable but the cost of the next step up to J was absurd. I've never flown PE over the Atlantic. If I found this price relationship for a trip there I wouldn't buy PE either - but, from Boston, Europe is only about six hours away so I'd probably suck it up in the small seats or try to upgrade with miles.
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Old Mar 11, 2019, 4:22 pm
  #38  
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Originally Posted by Efrem
Couldn't agree more. I've flown VA PE to/from Down Under three times (round trips, total six flights) and have BOS-NRT booked in JL PE for next month. It hits a "sweet spot" between being squeezed into an economy seat and breaking my budget.
How comfortable did you find being in PE for 14+ hours?

Next year, my wife and I are planning to fly in CX J - destinations within Asia TBD but I'm going to be booking the TPACs in the next few weeks. But now we're sort of thinking about bringing the kids (teenagers), and in a lot of my first searches I see flights available for partner bookings as 4 PE and 2 J. Finding 4 J is pretty rare. The CX PE seat is 40" x 20", which doesn't sound horrible if there's some decent recline to get some sleep.
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Old Mar 11, 2019, 7:37 pm
  #39  
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Originally Posted by pinniped
How comfortable did you find being in PE for 14+ hours?

Next year, my wife and I are planning to fly in CX J - destinations within Asia TBD but I'm going to be booking the TPACs in the next few weeks. But now we're sort of thinking about bringing the kids (teenagers), and in a lot of my first searches I see flights available for partner bookings as 4 PE and 2 J. Finding 4 J is pretty rare. The CX PE seat is 40" x 20", which doesn't sound horrible if there's some decent recline to get some sleep.
The recline in VA PE is definitely "decent," better than what you typically find in domestic US F. I usually pop an Ambien CR on any flight longer than 8 hours, so I did, and I slept very well with no difficulty. Not as nice as J, which I was also able to fly (QF, not VA) on one trip to Down Under, but fully adequate when I was awake and I didn't feel all cramped and creaky when I woke up. Decent food, as well, and cabin crew that not only knew what a flat white is but were able to make one on board! (That's when I know I'm in Australia/New Zealand*: when asking for a flat white gets you a flat white, not a "what's that?" stare.)

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*Or, oddly enough, in a U.S. Starbucks. Maybe not the best I've ever had, that would be in Auckland, but good enough.
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Old Mar 13, 2019, 9:56 am
  #40  
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It's not about staus, it's about comfort. Compared to the horrors of basic economy, premium econ offers SOME respite. Not much, but it's still better. And this is the same of the Mercedes example. A 30k Benz (the CLA) is still a better, more well built, comfortable and beautiful car than a 30k Ford. Sure, if you want social status buy the SL Class. But on a day to day basis, a Benz is a Benz and there is a reason they are regarded as status symbols. Fundamentally, they are actually better cars. You may have no status with the higher classes of German car drivers if you have a CLA, but you will still get envious/reverse snob hatred glares from the guy in the beat up 10 year old Sentra.

If you don't care, don't seek status, and are only concerned about savings and economy..buy the used Sentra. It beats walking. Economy is like the Sentra...a barebones, uncomfortable, utilitarian seat. It will get you there, same as an F seat..but the experience will not be pleasant.
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Old Mar 15, 2019, 9:00 am
  #41  
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Originally Posted by davie355
It's hard to express this without sounding immature, but I'm of the opinion that "entry level luxury" is gauche. Mercedes-Benz sells a $30k car, for example, but I'd rather drive a $15k Toyota, because the Mercedes will convey that I am poor yet try to seem rich, while the Toyota could mean I'm secure in my socioeconomic status.

Does anybody share my view?
]For me personally, it's still to worry about what people perceive of your vehicle. The driving experience in a Toyota Yaris (the only $15k model) and the MB A series is night and day different. It would have nothing to do with perceptions.
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Old Mar 15, 2019, 10:15 am
  #42  
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Originally Posted by gungadin
Some of us older folks can be in real pain in an economy seat going overseas at night. And I dont think $1000 extra is that doable for everyone. I fly as comfortably as I can afford. And I think someone who does not understand that might be just a trifle out of touch with ordinary people.

I don't worry about what other people can afford. I worry about what I can afford. It doesn't matter to my wallet or butt in a seat what ordinary people are doing. I don't care when I pay 1000 extra on a TPAC that Joe Schmo wanted to but couldn't. It's not relevant to my transaction with the airline.
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Old Mar 17, 2019, 6:42 pm
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For me, I usually end up in PE when the upgrade to J doesn't work out. I only have experience on AA, where PE is essentially a domestic F on a long-haul international route.
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Old Mar 18, 2019, 6:37 pm
  #44  
 
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Originally Posted by pinniped
Next year, my wife and I are planning to fly in CX J - destinations within Asia TBD but I'm going to be booking the TPACs in the next few weeks. But now we're sort of thinking about bringing the kids (teenagers), and in a lot of my first searches I see flights available for partner bookings as 4 PE and 2 J. Finding 4 J is pretty rare. The CX PE seat is 40" x 20", which doesn't sound horrible if there's some decent recline to get some sleep.
Would you consider just you and your wife in J, your kids in Y?
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Old Mar 19, 2019, 1:54 am
  #45  
 
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Originally Posted by evergrn
For TPAC flights, in general the Y:PE:J ratios would be 1 : 2 : 6 for price, 1 : 1.5 : 6 for the seat footprint.
At least that's been my observation.

Based on this, PE offers the worst value. Airlines are ripping people off with PE revenues, and airlines know it.
Considering that J pax get very enhanced catering and amenities, lounge access, more miles, etc, one could argue that biz class is good value for the money. For award travel, J is an exceptional value.

However, there are so many people (like me sometimes) who can't tolerate the Y torture but could never afford to pay for J. Hence the demand for PE, and airlines take advantage of that demand.
To those who say rip off, it is simple business supply and demand. I often take PE on flights over 6 hours, I find fares are normally reasonable, but there is no "rule" as we all no air ticket prices are very dynamic. Off course airlines take
advantage of high demand, and we as travelers are free to take advantage of low demand. This really is not a shock ! And also ther is no PE standard, I fine some airlines its a slightly bigger seat, with others its a lot more, OH just like every other class
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