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Passenger smoked in lav

Passenger smoked in lav

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Old Feb 6, 19, 12:36 pm
  #31  
 
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Originally Posted by HNLbasedFlyer View Post
This site suggests 4 shots will get you to .08 for a 160lb person.

Regardless, it isn't exactly uncommon for people to have 6 mixed drinks on a transcon or even a midcon, at least in my observations.......
I agree with that. It’s possible a heavy drinker could hide having had six shots in an hour. I was just objecting to the “fine” part.

Originally Posted by raehl311 View Post
Maybe at 150. But a 200-lb man who did 6 shots in an hour would top out at about .12. Certainly over the legal limit for operating a motor vehicle. For someone that doesn't drink at all, you'd probably notice some speech / coordination issues. For a semi-regular drinker, you likely would not notice at all.
Right, but “not noticing” and knowing the person has already had six, as in the case of an FA, are two very different things.
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Old Feb 6, 19, 12:45 pm
  #32  
 
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No matter how drunk or not drunk the individual in question was, he was completely wrong and 100% responsible for smoking. The FA is not at fault here. He is.

Would it be a security risk? I doubt it. In fact, I remember that not too long ago the lav doors on the 777 airplane had a pretty obvious space to extinguish smoking material. It may even still be there. Sure, it is (now) unexpected, and one could question the inherent hazard of smoking on an airplane (and debate whether it should ever have been permitted). But what is not debatable is that tobacco smoke is an environmental hazard to everyone around the smoker, and in an cylinder where the air is recycled the stench spreads pretty quickly. For having seen what happen to air quality when pilots light up (in China), it seems self evident. That is the main reason why it was forbidden and why this type of offense needs to be treated seriously.

Seems like he got what he deserved. Excellent!
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Old Feb 6, 19, 12:50 pm
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The main reason they really, really, really don't want smoking in the lavs is the risk that a less-than-brilliant passenger throws their butt in the trash and causes a fire on the airplane which is a major, major, major, major problem. It is a HUGE safety problem.

Originally Posted by joe_miami View Post
I agree with that. It’s possible a heavy drinker could hide having had six shots in an hour. I was just objecting to the “fine” part.

Right, but “not noticing” and knowing the person has already had six, as in the case of an FA, are two very different things.
Meh, who wants do deny two grandpas sitting together having a grand old time their Jack Daniels?
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Old Feb 6, 19, 12:50 pm
  #34  
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Originally Posted by MSPeconomist View Post
He may has disabled or destroyed the smoke detector in the lavatory. That's a safety hazard. It's also a potential safety hazard for someone to dispose of a lighted/used cigarette in the lavatory trash basket. I'm surprised that the FA didn't take additional steps during the flight, such as wetting or inspecting everything in the lavatory' trash basket and possibly closing the lavatory to passenger use since it might not have had a functioning smoke detector.

Once I was on a flight where someone started to smoke in the lavatory and several FAs came running with fire extinguishers.
Which brings up the age-old question of why "destroyed" isn't covered under "disabled"- if you disable it in any way, including destruction, it isn't going to work - just like "what's the difference between a sign and a placard."
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Old Feb 6, 19, 12:53 pm
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Originally Posted by skidooman View Post
I remember that not too long ago the lav doors on the 777 airplane had a pretty obvious space to extinguish smoking material.
All mainline aircraft have a clearly-labeled ash tray in the lav. It's because putting lit cigarettes in the trash is a huge safety hazard. That's how fires start. And as you say, just smoking is not really a safety issue. But a fire is.

It's like a needle exchange program. They don't want you to smoke in the lav. But if you're going to, they DEFINITELY don't want you to throw the cigarette in the trash.
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Old Feb 6, 19, 1:44 pm
  #36  
 
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The OP does not report that the passenger who smoked was acting intoxicated or belligerent, so I do not see any problem for blaming the FA.

One friend who gave up smoking about 15 years ago did mention that he had gotten away with smoking in the lavatory of a domestic flight. I think it was the sink method plus covering the smoke alarm (what one would call disabling rather than destroying it). It was that bad behavior of smoking in the airplane lavatory that made him quit...

It sounds as if UA handled this appropriately,
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Old Feb 6, 19, 1:55 pm
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Jan. 3 LAX-IAD, as we were deplaning at IAD I heard a man telling a woman that she had placed all of us in danger by smoking in the lav. I saw FA accompany the woman off the plane, and there were UA employees in the jetway and gate area. But I didn't see law enforcement officers in uniform. I wonder what happened to that woman.
How many years has it been since smoking was banned on all domestic flights first before global ban?
Why does anyone think it's OK to smoke when it's clearly forbidden?
Some of us are very sensitive to smoke.
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Old Feb 6, 19, 2:14 pm
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Originally Posted by CIT85 View Post
How many years has it been since smoking was banned on all domestic flights first before global ban?
I was wondering recently why some planes are still built with ash-trays? Do they think smoking is going to make a come-back in the future?
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Old Feb 6, 19, 2:20 pm
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Originally Posted by narvik View Post
I was wondering recently why some planes are still built with ash-trays? Do they think smoking is going to make a come-back in the future?
Not some planes; all planes. Required by law


(g) Regardless of whether smoking is allowed in any other part of the airplane, lavatories must have self-contained, removable ashtrays located conspicuously on or near the entry side of each lavatory door, except that one ashtray may serve more than one lavatory door if the ashtray can be seen readily from the cabin side of each lavatory served.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/25.853

As I noted above its to reduce the risk of fire, as people would be more likely to dispose of their (illegally smoked) cigarettes in the trash can.

Unless you meant ash trays at passenger seats, in which case I don't know.
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Old Feb 6, 19, 2:37 pm
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Originally Posted by CIT85 View Post
Jan. 3 LAX-IAD, as we were deplaning at IAD I heard a man telling a woman that she had placed all of us in danger by smoking in the lav. I saw FA accompany the woman off the plane, and there were UA employees in the jetway and gate area. But I didn't see law enforcement officers in uniform. I wonder what happened to that woman.
How many years has it been since smoking was banned on all domestic flights first before global ban?
Why does anyone think it's OK to smoke when it's clearly forbidden?
Some of us are very sensitive to smoke.
Northwest was the first US airline to ban smoking... maybe around 1986 or 1988? It wasn't long afterward that it was formally banned on US airlines.
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Old Feb 6, 19, 3:01 pm
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Originally Posted by JimInOhio View Post
Northwest was the first US airline to ban smoking... maybe around 1986 or 1988? It wasn't long afterward that it was formally banned on US airlines.
In the US it was banned by federal law on flights of two hours or less in 1988, and domestic flights 6 hours or shorter (so almost all of them) in 1990. By 1995 it was percolating around the world by various agreements, and fully banned on all US-flagged carriers by 2000.
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Old Feb 6, 19, 6:37 pm
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Originally Posted by joe_miami View Post
No, you haven’t.
Sure people have been unaffected by being high BAC. Body's adapt, especially in chronic alcoholics. I've picked up people who blew a 340 and had very little signs of impairment, certainly none that a casual observer would pick up on.. I've also picked up college students who managed to get over 400 in one night of drinking and found themselves getting intubated till they sobered up. So YMMV.
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Old Feb 6, 19, 6:59 pm
  #43  
 
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I thought the work-around was to put a shower cap (or swim cap) over the smoke detector!

Actually, I wouldn't know, never having smoked anything in my life...
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Old Feb 6, 19, 7:00 pm
  #44  
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Every Lav must have an ashtray or somewhere to extinguish lit cigarettes. It's part of FA safety checks every time they board a new a/c.

Smoking on flights happens much more often than it should, but it sounds like the crew handled it well in this case.

It depends on the length of the flight, but my pours get weaker and/or my refills take longer after the 4th drink or so. UA FAs use the stoplight system for determining when to cut someone off. It's not inconceivable that someone got to 6 J&Cs.
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Old Feb 6, 19, 7:00 pm
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Originally Posted by mduell View Post
It's unclear they were doing their job in compliance with the law, but I'll leave that for United to investigate (which we'll likely never hear the result of).
https://asrs.arc.nasa.gov

Aviation Safety Reporting System has some data (self-reported voluntary, and may take some time to show up?)

search for text ~ smoking (search is slow)
search for ACN: 1525100 (this search is fast)


ACN: 1525100 (7 of 10)

Time / Day

Date : 201803

Aircraft

Reference : X
ATC / Advisory.Center : ZZZZ
Aircraft Operator : Air Carrier
Make Model Name : Commercial Fixed Wing
Crew Size.Number Of Crew : 3
Operating Under FAR Part : Part 121
Flight Plan : IFR
Mission : Passenger
Flight Phase : Cruise

Person

Reference : 1
Location Of Person.Aircraft : X
Location In Aircraft : Flight Deck
Reporter Organization : Air Carrier
Function.Flight Crew : Captain
Qualification.Flight Crew : Air Transport Pilot (ATP)
Experience.Flight Crew.Total : 16227
Experience.Flight Crew.Type : 3089
ASRS Report Number.Accession Number : 1525100
Human Factors : Confusion

Events

Anomaly.Flight Deck / Cabin / Aircraft Event : Passenger Misconduct
Anomaly.Flight Deck / Cabin / Aircraft Event : Illness
Anomaly.Deviation - Procedural : Security
Detector.Person : Flight Attendant
Were Passengers Involved In Event : Y
When Detected : In-flight
Result.General : Police / Security Involved

Assessments

Contributing Factors / Situations : Human Factors
Contributing Factors / Situations : Procedure
Primary Problem : Human Factors

Narrative: 1

Purser called to say that [a] passenger was caught vaping, smoking, had cigarette lighter, stealing liquor, drunk, and harassing other passengers. Purser advised that [passenger] had become physically and verbally abusive, shoving Flight Attendants. Declared Level 2 and contacted Dispatch.

Flight Attendant not able to locate security kit and restraints. Checked flight manual, and diagram symbology does not match legend. This caused unnecessary confusion. Kit not found in designated locations.

[Passenger] later became ill and MedLink had to be called. Found empty bottle of Ambien on him. No medical professionals onboard. Requested medical to meet flight. [Passenger] later stabilized. Flight landed and was met by police and medical staff. [Passenger] deplaned on his own after being admonished.

Synopsis

Air carrier Captain reported an unruly passenger appeared to be under the influence of alcohol and prescription medication.
ACN: 1407624 (1 of 1)

Time / Day

Date : 201612
Local Time Of Day : 1201-1800

Place

Locale Reference.ATC Facility : ZZZ.ARTCC
State Reference : US

Aircraft

Reference : X
ATC / Advisory.Center : ZZZ
Aircraft Operator : Air Carrier
Make Model Name : EMB ERJ 170/175 ER/LR
Crew Size.Number Of Crew : 2
Operating Under FAR Part : Part 121
Flight Plan : IFR
Mission : Passenger
Nav In Use : FMS Or FMC
Flight Phase : Cruise
Airspace.Class A : ZZZ

Person : 1

Reference : 1
Location Of Person.Aircraft : X
Location In Aircraft : Cabin Jumpseat
Cabin Activity : Service
Reporter Organization : Air Carrier
Function.Flight Attendant : Flight Attendant (On Duty)
ASRS Report Number.Accession Number : 1407624
Human Factors : Other / Unknown

Person : 2

Reference : 2
Location Of Person.Aircraft : X
Location In Aircraft : Cabin Jumpseat
Cabin Activity : Service
Reporter Organization : Air Carrier
Function.Flight Attendant : Flight Attendant (On Duty)
ASRS Report Number.Accession Number : 1407627
Human Factors : Other / Unknown

Events

Anomaly.Flight Deck / Cabin / Aircraft Event : Passenger Misconduct
Anomaly.Deviation - Procedural : FAR
Detector.Person : Flight Attendant
Were Passengers Involved In Event : Y
When Detected : In-flight
Result.General : Police / Security Involved
Result.Flight Crew : Diverted

Assessments

Contributing Factors / Situations : Human Factors
Primary Problem : Human Factors

Narrative: 1

Passenger was observed by FA as being intoxicated while in flight. The passenger began to agitate another passenger sitting across from him. Both passengers stood up in the aisle and began to push each other causing a disturbance. [Another] Flight Attendant (FA) was also pushed by the passenger when she instructed them to sit in their seats because the seat belt sign was on. When passenger refused to sit, she called the Captain and asked him to make an announcement that the seat belt sign was on and he needed everyone to be seated. I (FA-A) noticed the passengers were ignoring the Captain's request. I immediately called the Captain and told him there was still a disturbance going on between the passengers. They were yelling at each other and using inappropriate language which could be heard throughout the cabin. The Captain told [the FA] to put the passenger who was causing the disturbance on the phone so he could talk to him. The Captain told the passenger to sit down or he would land the plane and have him removed by the police.

At that point that passenger did sit down but continued to get up and cause a disturbance with the other passengers. I called the Captain and informed him of this. The Captain told me we were going to land in [an alternate] and have him removed from the plane by the police. [I] called FA B and told her this. While the passenger was sitting he lit a cigarette and began to smoke it. You could smell the smoke throughout the cabin. I called the Captain and informed him that the passenger was smoking and the Captain told me that he could smell it. The passenger would not put the cigarette out and continued to smoke. Approximately 30 to 40 minutes later we landed and the police escorted the passenger off the plane.

Narrative: 2

[Report narrative contained no additional information.]

Synopsis

Two ERJ-175 flight attendants reported diverting to an alternate to have a passenger removed for misconduct.
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