Eastbay1K

I am reminded of a postcard that once arrived, not intended for me. It was from a US woman of African ancestry, writing her friend from the land of her African ancestors, disappointed in the reception she received. It sounded like she expected to be welcomed with open arms like long lost family, although her nearest connection with that location was no less than a multitude of generations past.

I find that there's a quite US-centric (and perhaps Canadi>n, too), whereby we associate "what we are" with "where we are from." You don't realize it much until you do travel, and someone, say, of Mexican descent (but born in the US) will say "I'm Mexican" and then after another question or two, being corrected by the other person, saying, no, you are United Statesian.

Now back to knowing a country - you can't know it until you meet local people and talk to them. You can like it, you can love it, you can have general impressions, but you can't know it.

CMK10

I frequently take long weekend trips to new countries. I do a hard two days in a city with a lot of walking, local meals, local breweries, attractions etc. I feel that most cities in the world I can get a good feel for in two days. Obviously cities like New York, London, Paris etc. need repeat visits because of their size, neighborhoods and world city status but I've now spent three days in Helsinki and I think another would be incredibly redundant.

The most important thing to remember is that no one should judge how you like to travel. My girlfriend likes to go to Caribbean islands, spend a little time shopping then the rest drinking on the beach. I like going to cities, walking ten miles and drinking a lot of beer. Neither style is better or worse than the other, it all comes down to personal preference.

cargueiro

Whilst I quite like Vientiane, it is a small, non descript, capital. But Laos is a beautiful country and I think your husband is a bit of a fool to have written Laos off after a brief visit to the capital.

pinniped

How often do you guys really run into this? (People claiming to be experts about a country after a short visit to one city.)

I love visiting new cities. I tend to like a country's cultural/culinary capital, which may or may not be the same as its financial or governmental capital. It's the best way for a visitor without an existing connection to get great food, wine, art, nightlife, music, sports, etc. - and in most places opportunities to do a lot of walking and exploring different neighborhoods. I usually like about 3 full days in a city. If we get past 5, then I'm going to want to do some daytrips out of the city. (I've redeemed about 10 Marriott Travel Packages over the years and am running out of ideas for future packages.) There are a few countries where I've gotten out into the countryside, but many more where I have not.

But I'd never roll up on a Spaniard and tell him I'm an expert on his country based on a few days in Madrid. Seriously...who does this?

Badenoch

I've run into it most often on cruises when a passenger extols the virtues or vices of a place after a few hours ashore on a past cruise.

pinniped

They can do a good comparative analysis of the quality of the 2-for-1 margaritas and the 4-for-$10 T-shirt selection.

GUWonder

cubbie

I think the whole premise of this thread was specious. One the one hand, someone wants to be reassured that they can know a country well after spending a few days in its capital city, regardless of what proportion of the population or area of the country that city represents. Washington DC, for example, is 68 square miles and 700,000 people. The United States is 3.8 million square miles and 328 million people. To paraphrase someone upthread, yeah, in three days I think you could get to know Lichtenstein pretty well.

On the other hand, someone's husband suffered altitude sickness in Bolivia and never wants to go back there again. If that isn't a classic example of conditioned nausea, I don't know what is. I know how he feels. I've had altitude sickness in Bolivia, northern Chile, and Denver, and I've been to all three multiple times. For reasons not related to the altitude, I'd be very interested in going back to northern Chile, only mildly interested in going back to Denver, and not at all interested in going back to Bolivia. Having lived 10 years in Chile and travelled extensively there, I think I can say I know the country fairly well. Being American and having travelled extensively here, I think I can say I don't have any trouble understanding Denver. Which is to say, "getting it" is uncorrelated to wanting to revisit it, in my opinion.

As an aside, I noted with interest a comment above about the proportion of Canadians who are anti-American being about 3,000 times greater than the proportion of Americans who are anti-Canadian. I'd go further and say I've never in my life heard any American, anywhere on the political spectrum or socioeconomic scale, say anything disparaging about Canadians. I can confidently say the same is true of American attitudes toward the English, other Europeans, Central Europeans, South Americans, Asians, Africans, etc... really, any people in any part of the world. (Now, to believe this, you have to be willing to distinguish between what our foul-mouthed President says and what the rest of us say.) You can't, as an American, enjoy visiting an international travel forum (or, for that matter, travel to foreign countries or live in a foreign country for several years) if you can't develop a thick skin about anti-Americanism. It's widespread, and I understand why. But I wonder if people in other countries realize or appreciate that we in America don't talk about you the way you talk about us or talk about each other. I think that's partly because that's not our idea of humor and partly because that's not our idea of good manners. Just thought maybe some of you would like to know we like you and we respect you, even if you don't like and respect us.

rickg523

Here on FT, I say this is true. But...
Mostly, Americans don't even think about other countries at all. They're not really interested.
​The overwhelming majority of Americans have little or no interest in even visiting foreign lands. Only a minority even possess a passport.
To a great many, American exceptionalism is so ingrained that they don't even think the experiences of other nations can illuminate solutions to their problems.
This is why the investment banks posing as health insurance companies can convince so many Americans that what has worked for decades in Western Europe and Scandinavia is untenable in the USA (this demands that American Medicare also be shrugged off; the complete over-politicization of American policy discussions allows this willful ignorance). This same disinterest - frankly more like dismissal - of other nations and their experiences is why having a vicious little creep like Tramp filling that blind spot in their knowledge with his poisonous filthy lies is pernicious.

cubbie

First of all, not true about passports: roughly 141 million Americans, or 42%, hold passports. The notion that only a tiny minority of Americans have passports is a persistent but false urban legend.

Second, I don't know how you would prove your assertions concerning what's going on, or rather not going on, inside the heads of Americans concerning how much or how little they think about other countries and the citizens of other countries, but I was talking about disparaging attitudes and remarks, not disinterest.

In my experience, some people do like to tell themselves and others what they think Americans think about them, based largely on what other people in their own country or other countries tell them about what Americans think, and that's just part of anti-Americanism. In the purported spirit of the origin of this thread, you might want to really get to know a few of us and be open to changing your mind about how closed-minded you think we are about you.

pinniped

Generations of Americans could travel long distances within the (north) Western Hemisphere without a passport. Europeans used to have to show a passport every time they crossed a border. Now those things have reversed to some extent, so it makes sense that more Americans are getting passports. (I don't know if fewer Europeans are getting them.)

Many Americans are still intensely phobic about the rest of the world, especially places they view as extremely foreign like Africa or Asia, as opposed to just-a-little foreign like Canada or the UK.

rickg523

Well, I never said tiny minority. That would have been true in the 1990's when less than 15% of Americans had passports. But, regardless of your reading connotations into it, 42% is actually a minority.
Of course, my generalization about disinterest is as unprovable as the contention that Americans like and respect foreigners. How is that knowable?
Btw, I'm an American. And what I expressed is a result of my experience being a well-traveled American and having lived in every region of the nation (excluding Alaska and Hawaii - visited only). My fellow citizens often like to discuss, with friendly and respectful curiosity, the differences between the US and everywhere else, but also generally pooh-pooh the idea that political or social successes overseas have anything to offer America. You don't think that's two sides of the same coin?

thebakaronis

I initially read that first line as a sarcastic statement. Then, to my disappointment and surprise, I realized you were being earnest. As a naturalized citizen of color, my experiences are so different that we must live in 2 different Americas. A large number of people in this country are as you describe. Of that I have no doubt. On the whole Americans are a welcoming, open-minded people. It's a good place to live in (otherwise, so many people wouldn't be immigrating).

BUT, the extreme assertion you're making is simply not supportable on many levels. At a personal level, I have heard numerous idiotic, false & ignorant statements from people about other countries in real life. This includes people who have traveled abroad, and otherwise claim to be "educated", "open minded", "progressive" & "non-racists". Some are in the form of oblique comments, others in the form of omissions, yet others full of latent hostility delivered in a polished manner (and sometimes even accompanied by fake praise). In addition, what you praise as "politeness" actually masks what people are truly thinking. This politeness is sometimes fake or affected. Like all bottled up feelings, when their true feelings do burst through this lid of politeness either via words or actions they hurt a lot, both emotionally and sometimes physically (when violence is involved). I'd rather have someone stop pretending to treat me with respect than for them to smile at me even as they're thinking what a piece of .... I am for coming from a "shithole country". Don't mistake me: being insulted & disrespected is not nice. But being "fake nice" is just as bad. The effect is that you never know who is a real racist and who isn't. So you have to be constantly on your guard, especially in this Trumpian age. The stress of being constantly on alert is actually taking a toll on peoples' mental & physical health (please read up on this subject).

At a more generalized, impersonal level, please look up the statistics on hate crime and other unsavory incidents inspired by disdain for others. Besides, you only have to read what's being written online to know that ignorance, xenophobia and racism are alive & growing in this country. A lot of what is being said on forums and social media is appalling. This racism has always been there, but under the surface. What Trump has done is allow these racists to come out boldly in the open, and to speak & act with impunity.

We may be better than a lot of countries, but let's not grab that halo yet. We've got lots and lots of abhorrent people in our society, and they're growing in number and their voices getting louder. To deny that is irresponsible and ignorant.

nancypants

cubbie

You thought I was being sarcastic when I said I'd never heard anyone say anything bad about Canadians? Seriously? Do you know anybody who badmouths Canadians? You've gotta be pretty mean to badmouth Canadians.

I clearly stated that my assertions described my own experience. What I said was "I've never heard in my life.." You're recasting my assertions as extreme in trying to suggest that I am describing all Americans, all halo-clad. You're experience with people you have encountered personally may well be different.

Don't expect me to defend the vitriol that some people from all walks of life in all parts of the world spit out onto the internet, and don't suggest I'm pretending hate crimes don't occur in the US and everywhere else. Are there hateful Americans? Of course there are. There are hateful people everywhere.

But what I am talking about is the social acceptability of personal (as opposed to political) anti-Americanism --- and that is routinely directed not solely at the hateful, shameful, evil actors in American society but at Americans as a whole for no better reason than that they are Americans. I'm not talking about criticizing the current Presidential administration, I'm not talking about US govt policies, I'm talking about disparaging American people personally just for being Americans, with all the stereotypes and prejudices that that suggests. I read six different snotty comments about Americans in various forums here on FlyerTalk just in the half hour or so before I wrote my earlier post today, and that's on FT, where so many people pride themselves on being more enlightened than the average Joe on the street, and that's a typical day, and like anyone else, I only read a small fraction of what's on FT. You can rationalize anti-Americanism on not just a political level but also a personal level but you can't convincingly deny that it is real and it is pervasive. I just think it deserves to be said that you shouldn't assume that Americans, in general, reciprocate the degree of hostility toward people from other countries that so many people from other countries feel toward Americans. You can't have it all ways: despise the farmer in Iowa because he doesn't have a passport, then find out he does have a passport and has travelled to Cuba and China and the EU in groups looking for international markets for his crops, then make fun of him because you can tell he's an American from a mile away because of what color shoes he wears, and then assume all sorts of things about how unsophisticated and narrow-minded he must be because he's American, and then if it turns out you're wrong about all that, rationalize despising him because, being American, surely he feels superior to people from other countries and despises them. You just don't know any of that about someone you don't even know. But we all know people who like to think that way.

Perhaps you'd consider these earlier statements of mine more believable if I modified them as follows (underlining, italics):

"But I wonder if people in other countries realize or appreciate that we in America don't all talk about you the way some of you talk about all of us or talk about each other. I think that's partly because, for many of us, that's not our idea of humor and partly because that's not our idea of good manners. Just thought maybe some of you would like to know that many of us like you and respect you, even if you don't like and respect us.

I spent ten years living in a country where anti-Americanism is virulent. I'm not so naive as to think you can talk anyone out of it, no matter what kind of personal example you might try to set or what reasonable arguments you might make. My point, again, very specifically, is that you may be making a mistake projecting your feelings onto someone else and assuming they feel the same contempt for you that you feel for them.