Airline Service Cutbacks -Basic Econ etc. should be illegal
Dec 21, 2018, 1:33 pm
#31
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The airline PR/Marketing departments all should receive humongous raises for how they have misled the public and many on this forum (and most in this thread) on Basic Economy and the service fees.
As far as Basic Economy, it is a scam to make more money. Between 2008-2016 when I did large amounts of flying I remember regular economy tickets being $90-$130 one way on the various routes I've flown. On those same routes/airlines today, those prices are still there, only those are now the Basic Economy prices. The regular economy fares are now +$30 domestically, so now I am paying $120-$160 for those same tickets. Basic Economy wouldn't be bad if I could add in options a la Spirit, Allegiant, and Frontier, but they don't allow you to select a seat for a fee, add in extras etc. It's a horrible product using the old regular economy fares.
The fees: this is mainly checked baggage fees, but also includes "preferred" seat fees and to a bit of a lesser degree, food. Back around the last recession around 2007-2008, all the airlines started charging checked baggage fees to make up lost income elsewhere in order for them to survive. Same with taking away free food/snacks and making upfront aisle/window seats "preferred". Fair enough. Now that the recession is over we can get rid of those fees, right? Wrong. The airlines saw how much they were making doing it, so they continued it. They have even increased the price of a checked bag up to $30 now, and instead of "Preferred" seats being a couple of extra dollars, they are at least $20 or more depending on the length of flight. To add insult to injury, they say these increased fees are "giving us options". BS.
At this point I'm all for the legacy carriers going to the ULCC "a la carte" model, at least I can add all of my extras along with paying a decent airfare price. Not paying $160 for a one-way economy ticket that doesn't include a decent seat or a checked bag.
As far as Basic Economy, it is a scam to make more money. Between 2008-2016 when I did large amounts of flying I remember regular economy tickets being $90-$130 one way on the various routes I've flown. On those same routes/airlines today, those prices are still there, only those are now the Basic Economy prices. The regular economy fares are now +$30 domestically, so now I am paying $120-$160 for those same tickets. Basic Economy wouldn't be bad if I could add in options a la Spirit, Allegiant, and Frontier, but they don't allow you to select a seat for a fee, add in extras etc. It's a horrible product using the old regular economy fares.
The fees: this is mainly checked baggage fees, but also includes "preferred" seat fees and to a bit of a lesser degree, food. Back around the last recession around 2007-2008, all the airlines started charging checked baggage fees to make up lost income elsewhere in order for them to survive. Same with taking away free food/snacks and making upfront aisle/window seats "preferred". Fair enough. Now that the recession is over we can get rid of those fees, right? Wrong. The airlines saw how much they were making doing it, so they continued it. They have even increased the price of a checked bag up to $30 now, and instead of "Preferred" seats being a couple of extra dollars, they are at least $20 or more depending on the length of flight. To add insult to injury, they say these increased fees are "giving us options". BS.
At this point I'm all for the legacy carriers going to the ULCC "a la carte" model, at least I can add all of my extras along with paying a decent airfare price. Not paying $160 for a one-way economy ticket that doesn't include a decent seat or a checked bag.
Dec 21, 2018, 1:50 pm
#32
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there is some merit to a minimum standard action by the DOT and corresponding government bodies to prevent airlines from going full capitalist monster. Basic Economy isn't necessarily a bad thing. It's a deep discount product with very limited options and many restrictions. If it doesn't fit for you don't buy it.
As far as Basic Economy, it is a scam to make more money. Between 2008-2016 when I did large amounts of flying I remember regular economy tickets being $90-$130 one way on the various routes I've flown. On those same routes/airlines today, those prices are still there, only those are now the Basic Economy prices. The regular economy fares are now +$30 domestically, so now I am paying $120-$160 for those same tickets.
At this point I'm all for the legacy carriers going to the ULCC "a la carte" model, at least I can add all of my extras along with paying a decent airfare price. Not paying $160 for a one-way economy ticket that doesn't include a decent seat or a checked bag.
Dec 21, 2018, 2:05 pm
#33
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 6,334
The airline PR/Marketing departments all should receive humongous raises for how they have misled the public and many on this forum (and most in this thread) on Basic Economy and the service fees.
As far as Basic Economy, it is a scam to make more money. Between 2008-2016 when I did large amounts of flying I remember regular economy tickets being $90-$130 one way on the various routes I've flown. On those same routes/airlines today, those prices are still there, only those are now the Basic Economy prices. The regular economy fares are now +$30 domestically, so now I am paying $120-$160 for those same tickets. Basic Economy wouldn't be bad if I could add in options a la Spirit, Allegiant, and Frontier, but they don't allow you to select a seat for a fee, add in extras etc. It's a horrible product using the old regular economy fares.
The fees: this is mainly checked baggage fees, but also includes "preferred" seat fees and to a bit of a lesser degree, food. Back around the last recession around 2007-2008, all the airlines started charging checked baggage fees to make up lost income elsewhere in order for them to survive. Same with taking away free food/snacks and making upfront aisle/window seats "preferred". Fair enough. Now that the recession is over we can get rid of those fees, right? Wrong. The airlines saw how much they were making doing it, so they continued it. They have even increased the price of a checked bag up to $30 now, and instead of "Preferred" seats being a couple of extra dollars, they are at least $20 or more depending on the length of flight. To add insult to injury, they say these increased fees are "giving us options". BS.
At this point I'm all for the legacy carriers going to the ULCC "a la carte" model, at least I can add all of my extras along with paying a decent airfare price. Not paying $160 for a one-way economy ticket that doesn't include a decent seat or a checked bag.
As far as Basic Economy, it is a scam to make more money. Between 2008-2016 when I did large amounts of flying I remember regular economy tickets being $90-$130 one way on the various routes I've flown. On those same routes/airlines today, those prices are still there, only those are now the Basic Economy prices. The regular economy fares are now +$30 domestically, so now I am paying $120-$160 for those same tickets. Basic Economy wouldn't be bad if I could add in options a la Spirit, Allegiant, and Frontier, but they don't allow you to select a seat for a fee, add in extras etc. It's a horrible product using the old regular economy fares.
The fees: this is mainly checked baggage fees, but also includes "preferred" seat fees and to a bit of a lesser degree, food. Back around the last recession around 2007-2008, all the airlines started charging checked baggage fees to make up lost income elsewhere in order for them to survive. Same with taking away free food/snacks and making upfront aisle/window seats "preferred". Fair enough. Now that the recession is over we can get rid of those fees, right? Wrong. The airlines saw how much they were making doing it, so they continued it. They have even increased the price of a checked bag up to $30 now, and instead of "Preferred" seats being a couple of extra dollars, they are at least $20 or more depending on the length of flight. To add insult to injury, they say these increased fees are "giving us options". BS.
At this point I'm all for the legacy carriers going to the ULCC "a la carte" model, at least I can add all of my extras along with paying a decent airfare price. Not paying $160 for a one-way economy ticket that doesn't include a decent seat or a checked bag.
Dec 21, 2018, 2:17 pm
#34
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If you compare the market and the conditions to 10 years ago there are some big differences. We now have the big 3 (AA, DL & UA) The Medium 3 (AS, B6 & WN) and the LCC-regionalish few (G4, F9, NK...) compared to AA, CO, DL, UA & US with AS, B6, VX & WN. AS merged with VX and WN took over FL. F9 was in its infancy and regional competition was up. As the market gets consolidated the ability for individual companies making changes that lead to large whole market changes becomes more evident and have a fuller impact. Charging for bags, the BE movement, removal of meals started with one airline and the larger airlines saw it as a way to cut costs as they tend to have more legacy costs whereas the medium market companies like B6 used things like Direct TV & free wifi as a way to standout instead of generate revenue. I don't mind paying for flexibility in tickets and perks as wifi is not a "right" nor a need really but rather a want for most people but cramming people into smaller spaces to generate revenue via more seat sales or having a low class/economy minus default that few people would willingly sit in is a potential problem as airlines continue looking for revenue streams. A minimum standard of comfort could/work makes sure airlines don't go too far which could cause an average person difficulty to generate revenue by selling more economy plus style seats.
Dec 22, 2018, 4:13 am
#35
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The people get what the people deserve. The problem is that unfortunately when it comes to pubic transportation, ALL of the people get what only SOME of the people want, the some just happen to be the majority.
Unfortunately, a lot of people are willing to accept almost anything except perhaps 'standing room only' tickets, if it means they can go on their annual vacation to wherever. So an airline can fill Economy with those people and those who want a bit more space etc. have no choice but to accept that and realize that flying Economy is simply not an option for them. I gave up on flying Economy years ago.
I suppose there are 2 ways to look at it. Go back to a decent amount of space, ammenities included, etc. as in the past for Economy, but at a higher price or pay the price you need to pay to get what Economy used to get and fly in a more premium cabin. What is not going to happen is that seat space will get bigger and everyone will then pay more to fly in the way the OP, I and others want to fly. The airlines are simply responding to demand and the demand is for cheap seats. You can't have cheap seats and better service at the same time. The equation has to balance or a company goes out of business. Price minus cost equals profit.
Flying used to be something that not everyone could afford to do and not everyone thought they should be able to afford to do. It's that second part that causes the problem. Putting it bluntly, if poor people realized they were poor and didn't try to buy seats on a plane, airlines would have no one to sell 30" pitch and 17" wide seats to. But as long as those people are willing to pay for those seats, the airline will sell them, why wouldn't they? It is the market (the public) that creates demand, not the airlines. The airlines simply follow demand.
Flying today is simply a bus with wings and our expectations should start from that point of fact. If I can afford to own a car and not have to share space with everyone else, I buy a car and leave riding the bus to the poorer people. At least with flying, if I can't afford my own jet, I can pay more and sit in the bigger seats at the front of the plane, not in the back with the poor people.
Unfortunately, a lot of people are willing to accept almost anything except perhaps 'standing room only' tickets, if it means they can go on their annual vacation to wherever. So an airline can fill Economy with those people and those who want a bit more space etc. have no choice but to accept that and realize that flying Economy is simply not an option for them. I gave up on flying Economy years ago.
I suppose there are 2 ways to look at it. Go back to a decent amount of space, ammenities included, etc. as in the past for Economy, but at a higher price or pay the price you need to pay to get what Economy used to get and fly in a more premium cabin. What is not going to happen is that seat space will get bigger and everyone will then pay more to fly in the way the OP, I and others want to fly. The airlines are simply responding to demand and the demand is for cheap seats. You can't have cheap seats and better service at the same time. The equation has to balance or a company goes out of business. Price minus cost equals profit.
Flying used to be something that not everyone could afford to do and not everyone thought they should be able to afford to do. It's that second part that causes the problem. Putting it bluntly, if poor people realized they were poor and didn't try to buy seats on a plane, airlines would have no one to sell 30" pitch and 17" wide seats to. But as long as those people are willing to pay for those seats, the airline will sell them, why wouldn't they? It is the market (the public) that creates demand, not the airlines. The airlines simply follow demand.
Flying today is simply a bus with wings and our expectations should start from that point of fact. If I can afford to own a car and not have to share space with everyone else, I buy a car and leave riding the bus to the poorer people. At least with flying, if I can't afford my own jet, I can pay more and sit in the bigger seats at the front of the plane, not in the back with the poor people.
The people in the back are mostly not poor people, they're just cheap. That includes me, usually. The last time I bought a seat in Main Cabin Extra on AA, the extra space was very little and not worth the fee.
I've taken the bus and the train lots of times even though I can afford to drive. You choose to spend more than necessary on transportation, which is great, that's your choice, but don't insult everyone else as a bunch of "poor people".
Dec 22, 2018, 8:51 am
#36
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IMO today's premium economy is better than the economy seats I flew in the 80's. The price of a PE ticket today when inflation is factored in is not substantially different from an economy ticket on a mainline carrier in 1980. If you want the 80's experience take PE.
Dec 22, 2018, 10:11 am
#37
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There is NO right to plane travel. Rights are things the government must allow. In the US this includes free speech, jury trials, etc... There has never been a right to travel by plane. Government could shutdown air travel tomorrow if they wish. Also only governments must respect rights, not companies or people. I don't have to let you talk to me at my house. A company doesn't have to let you travel on It's plane. Etc...
Dec 22, 2018, 11:47 am
#38
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Poor people?
The people in the back are mostly not poor people, they're just cheap. That includes me, usually. The last time I bought a seat in Main Cabin Extra on AA, the extra space was very little and not worth the fee.
I've taken the bus and the train lots of times even though I can afford to drive. You choose to spend more than necessary on transportation, which is great, that's your choice, but don't insult everyone else as a bunch of "poor people".
The people in the back are mostly not poor people, they're just cheap. That includes me, usually. The last time I bought a seat in Main Cabin Extra on AA, the extra space was very little and not worth the fee.
I've taken the bus and the train lots of times even though I can afford to drive. You choose to spend more than necessary on transportation, which is great, that's your choice, but don't insult everyone else as a bunch of "poor people".
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/b...g-middle-class
In the article, they refer to the upper, middle and lower thirds. A nice way to avoid saying either rich or poor. No need to offend anyone by telling it like it is, especially those in the lower (poor) third. I just tell it like I see it Kevin. Time was when only the 'upper third' (if you prefer I not say 'rich') could afford to fly. Now everyone in the middle and lower third expect to also be able to fly. The only way that is possible of course is if seats are cheap enough for them to afford to pay for.
But you're right, they are not just the poor, they are also the middle class in the back of the bus. They can't afford to fly up front either. That's not just being 'cheap' as you say and imply they could afford to fly up front if they wanted to, no they couldn't.
So in terms of this thread, there is no point in complaining about what paying for an Economy seat gets you. The airlines are just following the market they now serve. If someone wants more, they need to pay for it. Of course that leaves a lot of the middle third and all of the lower third with no alternative other than to just complain about what they can afford.
Dec 22, 2018, 1:18 pm
#39
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many super wealthy fly Y, and many on FT spend on F when their income is low or not that high
vast majority of general aviation in US / north america is mid level business people (who dont make a fortune)
some great posts re economics and also from chgoeditor for example
vast majority of general aviation in US / north america is mid level business people (who dont make a fortune)
some great posts re economics and also from chgoeditor for example
Dec 22, 2018, 4:25 pm
#40
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Hang on... you can STILL fly the same routes as you did TEN years ago for the SAME price? OR,,fly the same routes on a "normal" fare for $30 more? And you're whining about it? What business are YOU in? Can I expect to purchase YOUR (core) goods/services for the same prices as 2008? Or your complete services for "$30" more than 2008? If not, then why are you suggesting you should be able to buy airfares on that basis?
Dec 22, 2018, 5:19 pm
#41
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If I wanted the same experience that I got for $100 in the past, I now have to pay an additional $30 (the going rate for the difference between Basic Economy and Main Cabin on most domestic routings) for that privilege. Same class of service, same time of year, same airline, same flights, but I have to pay more now for the "privilege" of not suffering through Basic Economy.
Dec 22, 2018, 7:26 pm
#42
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I think there needs to be a law stating that all Economy products should be 34-36 inches with 18" width. The Basic Economy, less legroom and charge for checked bags should be illegal. First of all its a waste of time for flight attendants to shuffle luggage that people have brought on especially on the Embraer Jets.
This Basic Economy, small legroom , pay to access overhead space should be deemed illegal in the court of law. Also the first bag should be free and then the airline could charge $100 for the 2nd Bag or fly First Class.
Also bring back complimentary meals and drinks. Its enough nickle and diming customers. These Low Cost Carriers not offering complimentary beverages should be illegal.
Water is a basic need not a right that you have to pay for. If you want to fly then airlines should rework their financial structure. Airlines are penalizing customers by having all these add ons.
I want to purchase one ticket and have everything included and not be bombarded with sales pitches, upgrade this and that. I hate this ala carte pricing. When I book a trip I save up for the flight, hotel and other expenses. No one said that everyone is owed a job that pays well for flights. I am sorry to say that because of this nickel and diming some passengers are entitled and cause issues when something goes wrong.
Flying is a privilege and not a right. It should be either you have been responsible and saved up for your trip or not
Why should many others suffer the cramped legoom in Coach I can see Premium Economy at 38" and yes will pay for that but the standard Economy should be between 34- 36" legroom at seats at 18" with all meals and drinks alcoholic or not included.
Airlines like Southwest can offer low cost flights but the legacy carriers should be more standardized. This Basic Economy structure is so frustrating and I will not fall for this crap.
Lets make flying great again back to the 70s 80s.
This Basic Economy, small legroom , pay to access overhead space should be deemed illegal in the court of law. Also the first bag should be free and then the airline could charge $100 for the 2nd Bag or fly First Class.
Also bring back complimentary meals and drinks. Its enough nickle and diming customers. These Low Cost Carriers not offering complimentary beverages should be illegal.
Water is a basic need not a right that you have to pay for. If you want to fly then airlines should rework their financial structure. Airlines are penalizing customers by having all these add ons.
I want to purchase one ticket and have everything included and not be bombarded with sales pitches, upgrade this and that. I hate this ala carte pricing. When I book a trip I save up for the flight, hotel and other expenses. No one said that everyone is owed a job that pays well for flights. I am sorry to say that because of this nickel and diming some passengers are entitled and cause issues when something goes wrong.
Flying is a privilege and not a right. It should be either you have been responsible and saved up for your trip or not
Why should many others suffer the cramped legoom in Coach I can see Premium Economy at 38" and yes will pay for that but the standard Economy should be between 34- 36" legroom at seats at 18" with all meals and drinks alcoholic or not included.
Airlines like Southwest can offer low cost flights but the legacy carriers should be more standardized. This Basic Economy structure is so frustrating and I will not fall for this crap.
Lets make flying great again back to the 70s 80s.
People should not use government to force their personal preferences on others. The free market should have first dibs at fixing any situation.
If Basic Economy is a “waste” as you state, then airlines will modify it.
What should be done is to truly have a free market in aviation, by having stronger antitrust laws and enforcement. Having more competition in the aviation industry would result in lots of customer benefits.
Dec 23, 2018, 1:00 am
#43
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Let me throw in a personal example because you both seem confused. On a given route on a given airline, I've flown it for around $100 in the past, one way. That was for a regular economy ticket that included the usual such as changes/refunds for a fee, free non-premium seat selection in advance, and regular boarding. Today on that same airline, same route, and same time of year, that $100 ticket is still there. However now it is a "Basic Economy" ticket with no changes/refunds, no advance seat selection, last boarding group, and on United, no carry-on. If I wanted the same experience that I got for $100 in the past, I now have to pay an additional $30 (the going rate for the difference between Basic Economy and Main Cabin on most domestic routings) for that privilege. Same class of service, same time of year, same airline, same flights, but I have to pay more now for the "privilege" of not suffering through Basic Economy.
Dec 23, 2018, 10:33 am
#44
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If you compare the market and the conditions to 10 years ago there are some big differences. We now have the big 3 (AA, DL & UA) The Medium 3 (AS, B6 & WN) and the LCC-regionalish few (G4, F9, NK...) compared to AA, CO, DL, UA & US with AS, B6, VX & WN. AS merged with VX and WN took over FL. F9 was in its infancy and regional competition was up. As the market gets consolidated the ability for individual companies making changes that lead to large whole market changes becomes more evident and have a fuller impact. Charging for bags, the BE movement, removal of meals started with one airline and the larger airlines saw it as a way to cut costs as they tend to have more legacy costs whereas the medium market companies like B6 used things like Direct TV & free wifi as a way to standout instead of generate revenue. I don't mind paying for flexibility in tickets and perks as wifi is not a "right" nor a need really but rather a want for most people but cramming people into smaller spaces to generate revenue via more seat sales or having a low class/economy minus default that few people would willingly sit in is a potential problem as airlines continue looking for revenue streams. A minimum standard of comfort could/work makes sure airlines don't go too far which could cause an average person difficulty to generate revenue by selling more economy plus style seats.
You are in fact assuming something that is completely contrary to what is in reality the case. People ARE willingly sitting in those seats. There are a lot, not 'a few' people who are willing to put up with almost anything as long as the price is low enough. I sometimes even wonder if people would not buy a 'standing room only' ticket if an airline offered to sell them one.
So from my perspective, the airlines are simply providing a product that the public is willing to buy. If you want to limit the airlines markets to those who can afford to pay for a relatively comfortable experience as was the case back in the 70s, that would mean you limit travel to roughly 1/3 of the population. In the 70s, roughly 80% of all people in the USA never got on a plane in their lifetime. Are you aware of that? Nowadays, I am sure it is the reverse. That means that people of less means are flying and are now part of the airlines market.
If you are a business and you want to provide a product to a larger market that includes people with less money to spend, then you have to sell only a cheap product to everyone OR you have to have several products at several different price points obviously. That's where we are today. A cheap seat, a medium priced seat, a higher priced seat. From the viewpoint of the person who can only afford the cheap seat, that is a good thing, they get to fly. Anyone who looks at it from the viewpoint of wanting the cheap price but a superior product however, is simply deluding themselves.
I can personally recall back to when there was only First Class and Economy. You had only those two choices. Now you have about 5 or 6 choices depending on the airline. Those choices exist to meet the need of different segments of the overall market. What's so hard to understand about that? People want cheap seats and are willing to buy them. No one is forcing you to buy them, you can pay more and get more.
The whole issue is about wanting to pay less but not get less than someone else who pays more. In other words, we want to 'have our cake and eat it too.'
Dec 23, 2018, 12:16 pm
#45
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A lot of discount European carriers charge for water and soft drinks and I love it, because when they are free every single person on the plane will get something and it will take an hour or more just to get to the middle of the plane. When they charge they can serve the whole plane in just a few minutes and everyone who needs a drink to get one really quickly.