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Forward Cabin Etiquette: Overhead Bin Space

Forward Cabin Etiquette: Overhead Bin Space

Old Nov 19, 2018, 7:37 pm
  #76  
 
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Originally Posted by dulciusexasperis
Strickerj, do you really think you don't pay for your carry-on bag? In simple terms, an airline sells you a fuel allowance. That is, they calculate the average weight of a passenger and baggage and then divide the total fuel cost to fly from A to B and divide by the number of passengers at that average weight. That gives them a price per seat. Whether you check a bag or not is irrelevant, you pay the price per seat. What ticket pricing model a given airline uses to come up with that amount is irrelevant. I can pay $100 for a seat plus $10 for a checked bag OR a carry-on bag. Or I can pay $110 for a seat with a carry-on OR checked bag included. Or I can pay $110 for a seat with a carry-on bag for free but a fee for a checked bag. Whatever way you want to do it, I pay for my allocation of fuel (I'm ignoring other expenses like maintenance etc. obviously for simplicity) and it is $110.

The reason why an airline chooses to add $10 for a checked bag is simple. People look for the lowest price. So if one airline shows $100 from A to B and another airline shows $110 from A to B, the people opt to book with the firs airline. Then they discover to check a bag will cost $10 on that airline and so try to travel carry-on only to save $10 and tell us, 'oh no, it isn't the $10, I am too busy and important to wait at a luggage carousel and besides I don't want them to lose my bag.' Yeah right.

Ask yourself why this issue with overhead bins exists? How did it come about? It did not exist 30 years ago you know. So what has changed and why?
Im not sure I follow how this relates to what I said... as of right now, checking a bag costs extra, whereas carrying your baggage on board is free or included in the ticket price, however you prefer to look at it. Conflicts occur over the bin space because passengers are carrying more baggage on board to avoid the checked bag fees, which didnt exist 30 years ago. The deterioration of customer service by the airlines has gained some considerable attention lately, so the point of my post was just, somewhat in jest, that now wouldnt be a good time to make such a drastic and seemingly vindictive cutback as getting rid of the overhead bins.
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Old Nov 20, 2018, 10:43 am
  #77  
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Originally Posted by strickerj


Im not sure I follow how this relates to what I said... as of right now, checking a bag costs extra, whereas carrying your baggage on board is free or included in the ticket price, however you prefer to look at it. Conflicts occur over the bin space because passengers are carrying more baggage on board to avoid the checked bag fees, which didnt exist 30 years ago. The deterioration of customer service by the airlines has gained some considerable attention lately, so the point of my post was just, somewhat in jest, that now wouldnt be a good time to make such a drastic and seemingly vindictive cutback as getting rid of the overhead bins.
strickerj, when I fly, I often check a bag. Simply because I am taking something I am not allowed to carry-on. ie. a Swiss Army Knife. I do not pay to check my bag, it is included in my ticket price. I don't know why you think everyone pays extra to check a bag. That is only true in some cases of the lowest fare classes. No one flying First or Business Class pays to check a bag, so that has no impact whatsoever on why they would still have a conflict over bin space. They have a conflict only because there is less space than items people want to carry on board, you have that right but NOT because they want to avoid checked bag fees.

Remember, this thread is about "forward cabin etiquette: Overhead bin space." Not cattle class. So what is your point then? Even in Y class (you know it used to be called C class for 'coach' but was referred to as C class for 'cattle'), if the bins were removed and everyone had to pay a fee per checked bag, it would not change the overall cost of you flying at all. It would just change how the price was shown to you. No different than a restaurant giving you a price per item or an all-inclusive price for a 3 or 4 course meal.

But lets' stick to First class which is the topic of this thread. Checked bags are free as is carry-on, so there is no price difference to cause conflict as you seem to be fixated on. If you can agree that difference does not then exist, why are there conflicts in First class over bin space? Your answer ($) doesn't exist. The only answer that exists is that people want to carry on more than there is space for stowing them.

Simple logic should then tell us that there are two solutions. One provide enough stowage for everyone to be able to stow everything or remove all stowage and check all bags. Which one of those two do you think is actually possible in any practical way?

What cannot be expected is to have too much stuff, too little space and no conflict. So if we are going to continue to have too much stuff and too little space, we must then expect and accept conflict as it is inevitable given human behaviour. That would then make talking about it pointless if we are not willing to solve the problem with the only practical solution that exists.

Also consider that we can agree on the only practical solution and still say, 'I don't want that solution, I will put up with the conflicts instead.' But we could stop having threads on the topic come up over and over again that go nowhere. Why not just agree on the solution and agree we don't want the solution? But then people wouldn't have an excuse to complain would they.
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Old Nov 20, 2018, 11:01 am
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Yes, my point was more general, not specifically for first class, where the baggage fees dont apply. I disagree though that removing the source of the conflict (in this case) will eliminate the conflict or not lead to new conflicts. Im with the poster that advocated for removing the offenders rather than punishing everyone. Onboard storage, and being able to access your baggage while in flight, is a convenience that most flyers wont want to give up, plus it frees up space in the cargo hold for freight. It doesnt really make sense to me to get rid of overhead bins entirely (incurring considerable expense in the process) because a tiny minority of passengers fight over them.
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Old Nov 20, 2018, 1:53 pm
  #79  
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Originally Posted by dulciusexasperis
the bins were removed and everyone had to pay a fee per checked bag, it would not change the overall cost of you flying at all. It would just change how the price was shown to you.
That's almost certainly not true. It would be true if airlines (or any business for that matter) charged you the amount that it costs them to do business, plus some fixed percentage of profit. But that's not how it works. There is a reason that "unbundling" is so popular -- it raises revenue.
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Old Nov 20, 2018, 2:53 pm
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Originally Posted by strickerj
It doesnt really make sense to me to get rid of overhead bins entirely (incurring considerable expense in the process) because a tiny minority of passengers fight over them.
+1. Airlines are not going to get rid of overhead bins. It would decrease cargo space, increase baggage handling costs and result in further delays at the carousels. It's preferable to have one-third to one-half of the bags carried on and off the plane by passengers.

What would help and be achievable is greater scrutiny at the gate. Currently, BA and some other airlines are tagging personal items. Doing the reverse and requiring tags for all bags in the overhead might be more appropriate. Any untagged bag in the overhead would be removed and checked. Untagged personal items would have to go under the seat.

A more dramatic step would be reducing the carry-on dimensions to the personal item size. There would be more room in the overhead and people could still carry on essential items. It would however, like removing overheads, create additional costs for the airlines and delays for passengers as millions of former carry-on bags would require being checked.
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Old Nov 20, 2018, 3:55 pm
  #81  
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Originally Posted by kb9522


Your backpack is a personal item. Get it out of the overhead bin.
I always put my backpack under the seat in front (when not in bulkhead). Mainly for easy and quick access mid-flight, as well as a nice leg/foot prop.
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Old Nov 20, 2018, 5:23 pm
  #82  
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Originally Posted by simons1
It isn't your space and it isn't your job to interfere with another passenger's bags.
If there is an issue then speak to the CC and ask them to help.
Exactly!
@fairhsa, thanks for your candor with this story and for throwing it out for discussion. Unfortunately, I think you crossed the line when you (as opposed to the flight attendant) removed another persons bag from the overhead bin. I think it crosses the line of acceptable. Yes, they hogged the bin, and yes, you had no where in the immediate area for your bag to go, but getting it out of the bin and handing Pax B his bag was out of line. It was a bold move under any circumstances, and you said you lost your temper. I don't imagine the negative attitude was overlooked by either the FA's, Pax B and wife, or other passengers. In short, I suspect you came off rather poorly. I think you would have had more success with simply flagging down the FA and asking for help. Surely the testy interactions for the rest of the flight were unpleasant for everyone.
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Old Nov 20, 2018, 9:33 pm
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Originally Posted by StartinSanDiego
Exactly!
@fairhsa, thanks for your candor with this story and for throwing it out for discussion. Unfortunately, I think you crossed the line when you (as opposed to the flight attendant) removed another persons bag from the overhead bin. I think it crosses the line of acceptable. Yes, they hogged the bin, and yes, you had no where in the immediate area for your bag to go, but getting it out of the bin and handing Pax B his bag was out of line. It was a bold move under any circumstances, and you said you lost your temper. I don't imagine the negative attitude was overlooked by either the FA's, Pax B and wife, or other passengers. In short, I suspect you came off rather poorly. I think you would have had more success with simply flagging down the FA and asking for help. Surely the testy interactions for the rest of the flight were unpleasant for everyone.
Thanks for your comments. Yes, I agree that would have been the better way to deal with it in hindsight. I have a short temper, but it rarely lasts more than a minute or so. However it's triggered in the matter of a milli-second so there is rarely any time to chose an alternative path (I could digress, there is actually a lot of research on why people react "disproportionately" to various events in the current world which basically explains that its hard coded in the DNA for evolutionary reasons, but that would be a digression - this article is fascinating for anyone with an interest: https://www.independent.co.uk/life-s...-a6847426.html). I calmed down very quickly and did not contribute to any of the ongoing "testiness" - which was entirely the partner of the other guy who (as I mentioned) came and told me she was going to try and get me "removed from the flight" and boy did she try hard. It was an oscar worthy performance. (I might have believed it myself if she hadn't come and viciously hissed at me beforehand). They lied and ranted and raved and it went on for any hour. Clearly that was a choice on their part. The minute I got over the initial snap (and it was less than a minute), and was back in control and capable of making a choice, I made the choice to sit down, shut up and refuse to escalate the situation. Then apologised when the staff asked me to (they just chose to yell insults at me when I did that), changed seats when asked to etc. I think that choosing to cause a disruption to everyone (which they did) is far worse than a brief lapse of judgement which was pretty much out of my control. Obviously I would, I do think that the environment we live in these days with heightened security and concerns with planes has left anyone in my situation (with a quick temper!) at a huge disadvantage - and basically at the mercy of the people like the other two who just wanted revenge for a perceived slight. I'm glad I was on an Asian airline from the perspective that Asians are far less likely to throw anyone off planes. On the other hand, they are also far less able to "tell" when one side has a motive.

(I would note to the other guy who was so upset that anyone would touch luggage, don't come and fly in Asia. It's extremely common for people to move your bag, touch your bag, even put it in another bin etc etc. The concept of "personal space" is very different there). That's not relevant to this debate as all parties were Australian.
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Old Nov 20, 2018, 11:31 pm
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Originally Posted by fairhsa
Thanks for your comments. Yes, I agree that would have been the better way to deal with it in hindsight. I have a short temper, but it rarely lasts more than a minute or so. However it's triggered in the matter of a milli-second so there is rarely any time to chose an alternative path (I could digress, there is actually a lot of research on why people react "disproportionately" to various events in the current world which basically explains that its hard coded in the DNA for evolutionary reasons, but that would be a digression - this article is fascinating for anyone with an interest: https://www.independent.co.uk/life-s...-a6847426.html). I calmed down very quickly and did not contribute to any of the ongoing "testiness" - which was entirely the partner of the other guy who (as I mentioned) came and told me she was going to try and get me "removed from the flight" and boy did she try hard. It was an oscar worthy performance. (I might have believed it myself if she hadn't come and viciously hissed at me beforehand). They lied and ranted and raved and it went on for any hour. Clearly that was a choice on their part. The minute I got over the initial snap (and it was less than a minute), and was back in control and capable of making a choice, I made the choice to sit down, shut up and refuse to escalate the situation. Then apologised when the staff asked me to (they just chose to yell insults at me when I did that), changed seats when asked to etc. I think that choosing to cause a disruption to everyone (which they did) is far worse than a brief lapse of judgement which was pretty much out of my control. Obviously I would, I do think that the environment we live in these days with heightened security and concerns with planes has left anyone in my situation (with a quick temper!) at a huge disadvantage - and basically at the mercy of the people like the other two who just wanted revenge for a perceived slight. I'm glad I was on an Asian airline from the perspective that Asians are far less likely to throw anyone off planes. On the other hand, they are also far less able to "tell" when one side has a motive.

(I would note to the other guy who was so upset that anyone would touch luggage, don't come and fly in Asia. It's extremely common for people to move your bag, touch your bag, even put it in another bin etc etc. The concept of "personal space" is very different there). That's not relevant to this debate as all parties were Australian.
You are brave for posting your story and responding to others.
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Old Nov 21, 2018, 7:49 am
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Originally Posted by yyznomad
You are brave for posting your story and responding to others.
Definitely! @fairhsa, we hope to see you around here more often, k?
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Old Nov 21, 2018, 9:02 am
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Originally Posted by fairhsa
Yes, I agree that would have been the better way to deal with it in hindsight. I have a short temper, but it rarely lasts more than a minute or so. However it's triggered in the matter of a milli-second so there is rarely any time to chose an alternative path.
Don't be too hard on yourself. Modern air travel shortens most tempers. Don't suppress your temper too much. There are occasions when a short, sharp response is entirely appropriate and necessary.
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Old Nov 21, 2018, 9:02 am
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Random observations and a story (LOL).

Once upon a time ... in a galaxy far away:
Partner and I are flying in F (I think Delta, but it may have been AA), in I believe row 2. We're in the middle of the group boarding, get on the plane and open the overhead bin (we each have a carry on and small backup that'll fit under the seat). Overhead bin has a guitar in it. I know whose it is because we saw it carried on (person in row 3). I ask the FA for assistance (I didn't want to move/touch said guitar). FA moved the guitar (although I don't remember if they asked whose it was) to the closet, which of course, freed up the room needed. I'd say everyone was "happy" but not sure. I vaguely recall the owner of said guitar looking concerned when the FA went to grab it, but nobody got upset (that I'm aware of).

Now, I normally fly with a backpack (like a school one, not like a hiking backpack) and a small carry on (swissgear something or other) as it'll hold my GoPro gear and stuff. Backpack will usually have my laptop and tablet (why both you ask, well laptop is for "power stuff" and tablet is for reading/movie watching whilst relaxing), along with all my meds and things that can't/shouldn't go in checked baggage.

Unfortunately because I mostly fly out of ALB (smalbany we call it), most of the planes are CRJ (although better than the old Dash-8 or whatever prop jobs--ugh), which of course, you can't hardly fit a jacket in the overhead bin (at least if you're on the 1-seat side in F). So in that case, gate checking is always necessary (and the fun begins to take out all the lithium ion batteries). But it depends on the aircraft and which side I'm sitting on. But I'm not alone in that situation, LOL.

But, also a lot of the jet service is on A319 or something where the first set of overhead bins has the safety gear and stuff, so the bulkhead people get doubly screwed (no underseat storage, and essentially they have to take up twice as much overhead bin space, in the row 2 overhead area). And then the row 2 people have to use the row 3 storage, etc.

There's probably no 100% solution to anything. Passengers can't control the aircraft type. Even with permitted # of carryon's and proper storage (ie, you put the big item in the overhead bin and the personal item under the seat), you can still run out of overhead space. Not everyone can put everything into something that'll fit underneath the seat.

Really the only thing that annoys me (in this situation--LOL) are the folks who bring in two large carry ons (rollaboards, etc. that are definitely larger than the "sizing" thingy that apparently nobody uses unless you're going through PHL and the random security folks get you), hog the space and then put ALL their stuff in the overhead bin so they can have more leg room.

But there are worse things in the world like an "Oasis-ized" AA flight (LOL).

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Old Nov 21, 2018, 10:24 am
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Originally Posted by hurnik
Really the only thing that annoys me (in this situation--LOL) are the folks who bring in two large carry ons (rollaboards, etc. that are definitely larger than the "sizing" thingy that apparently nobody uses ...
I agree 100%. Heck I've probably made the same post in this thread already. I see about a million people boarding planes with their large roller bag and a second, slightly smaller roller bag (or a giant backpack or the abovementioned guitar, etc) of which there is NO WAY its going to fit under the seat. Scaling back the "second, small personal item" to what its intended to be (purse, laptop bag, small backpack, etc) would cure almost all the OH issues.
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Old Nov 21, 2018, 10:40 am
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Originally Posted by strickerj
Yes, my point was more general, not specifically for first class, where the baggage fees dont apply. I disagree though that removing the source of the conflict (in this case) will eliminate the conflict or not lead to new conflicts. Im with the poster that advocated for removing the offenders rather than punishing everyone. Onboard storage, and being able to access your baggage while in flight, is a convenience that most flyers wont want to give up, plus it frees up space in the cargo hold for freight. It doesnt really make sense to me to get rid of overhead bins entirely (incurring considerable expense in the process) because a tiny minority of passengers fight over them.
Well we can agree to disagree on whether the better solution is to remove the offender or remove the reason for offenders offending. No bins, no cause to offend.

I can't buy your 'access your baggage while in flight' at all. That's being a bit disingenuous I'd say. No one wants to access their 'baggage' as in go through their clothing, toiletries etc. You carry essentials needed in flight in a small bag I'm sure strickerj. That's why the airlines list a carry-on plus 'personal article' usually and they are required to be able to fit under the seat, so no need for an overhead bin at all. I'm pretty sure you know that.
https://www.aircanada.com/ca/en/aco/.../carry-on.html

Or are you trying to tell me that you see lots of people getting their roll-aboard suitcase out of the overhead bins during flight and rummaging through them to find something? LOL That dog won't hunt strickerj.
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Old Nov 21, 2018, 10:53 am
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Originally Posted by VegasGambler
That's almost certainly not true. It would be true if airlines (or any business for that matter) charged you the amount that it costs them to do business, plus some fixed percentage of profit. But that's not how it works. There is a reason that "unbundling" is so popular -- it raises revenue.
There are various reasons why 'unbundling' is so popular, not just one. When the majority of air travellers today go online and book a flight based almost solely on price, the airlines have little alternative but to find the way to show the lowest price possible. That means unbundling so that the price shown is pretty much only the price for the seat and a rubber chicken 'meal' if you can call it a meal.

At the end of the day an airline is a business like any other. They need to make a profit to survive or even have a reason to bother being in business. "Raising revenue' as you call it is not a bad thing, it is a necessity. Or do you think a business should not make a profit? Whether people want to blame businesses for things they don't like or not does not change the fact that it is ALWAYS the consumer who drives things. The people always get what the people deserve. If we don't look at anything beyond price, then it should be no surprise if a business finds a way to show us the lowest price and then add on for things after that, so that they can make a profit.
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