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Do you mind if I borrow your pen?

Do you mind if I borrow your pen?

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Old Sep 12, 18, 1:48 pm
  #136  
 
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Originally Posted by s0ssos View Post
Most people. Why would you carry a pen? Everything is done on your phone. They also have e-signatures and most purchases nowadays don't need signing (and at restaurants in the US where they refuse to use chip and pin they provide you a pen).
Exactly, the US. The US is like a massive exception to everything. The last time I ever had to sign for something was in Iceland in 2010 about 3 months after the eruption, can't recall a time before or since then either.

Although I will say working in the education sphere and having previously studied in the music world has most likely drilled it into me to always carry some sort of writing implement at all times.
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Old Sep 12, 18, 1:50 pm
  #137  
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Originally Posted by rickg523 View Post
You need to fly private because it's never, ever going to get better. The airline's and the authorities continually change and, frankly, complexify (?) the rules, so infrequent travelers are never going to catch up. They don't even want to. What must be especially grating to you is when they do all those things that irritate you, they don't even care. The rolleyes, the impatient sighs, the tapping of the feet don't even register. They don't care you're being inconvenienced by their presence any more than you care about their issues generally caused by their unfamiliarity with flying.
All this - let's call it what it is - self absorption - really makes traveling so much less pleasant for everyone. But maybe even less pleasant for you since you take their behavior as a personal imposition.
It's like going to Costco and complaining about the check out lines. It's like complaining about the weather. Costco delivers, you can stay indoors, and there's private aviation.
Oh, I understand that, and I know I will encounter it. However, that is no reason to engage in it or to not take measures to avoid it. My whole travel method involves devising the ways and means to sit up front and reduce interactions.

As for self absorption, it seems to me that imposing upon others, interfering with the smooth flow of crowd traffic, asking others to accommodate your basic wants and making things harder for strangers as a result of a lack of foresight is itself the very result of self absorption.

After all, what is swimming up stream and back if NOT being self absorbed? What is leaving all your metals on and your liquids loose at TSA while people pile up behind you, despite the signs posted everywhere, if NOT self absorption? What is asking a stranger to swap from their seat so you can sit with a spouse if NOT self absorption? I would even go so far as to say that my behavior is the very antidote to self absorption.
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Old Sep 12, 18, 1:53 pm
  #138  
 
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Originally Posted by Proudelitist View Post
I don't suffer fools, and there are plenty of them in the air. It comes down to people not knowing how to travel and being ill prepared for it. Bags so heavy they have to impose on other passengers to lift them, ignorance of how to reserve seats or that seats are differentially priced so they end up demanding swaps or poaching, people trying to swim upstream after landing to get their bags from 9 rows back (and then trying to make their way back to their row for some bizarre reason) , people who don't prepare properly for TSA checks, and traveling without the common sense basics like a pen or a means to tell time.

It may not be a big deal for occasional fliers, but for those of us up there several times a week, it begins to grate on the nerves because it happens so incredibly often. I get tired of being a nanny to Kettles or worse to frequent fliers who should know better.

So yeah, the line in the sand is drawn.
I absolutely 100% agree with all of this. However - never fly within the former USSR nations then, lol. Take it from someone who travels from Kaliningrad to Kamchatka and everywhere in between in and out of Moscow on a regular basis!

Originally Posted by Proudelitist View Post
I am going to start carrying a pen without ink around, just to teach these fools a lesson in how to travel.

THIS! Genius idea.
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Old Sep 12, 18, 2:15 pm
  #139  
 
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Originally Posted by Proudelitist View Post

As for self absorption, it seems to me that imposing upon others, interfering with the smooth flow of crowd traffic, asking others to accommodate your basic wants and making things harder for strangers as a result of a lack of foresight is itself the very result of self absorption.
I agree, except for the assumption that most of these things are the result of lack of foresight - I take them more as lack of information and because of infrequency, the lack of willingness to expend the effort to become more informed. If I'm occasionally staying at a rental with a swimming pool, I'll use the pool, but I'm not going to study up on pool maintenance. OTOH, we fly a lot. It serves us well to figure flying out.
I don't think doctrinaire refusal to assist others who have, due to their ignorance, gotten themselves in a minor pickle easily corrected with little or no inconvenience is helpful, nor do I believe it's in any way remedial to the inexperienced. I think that's just taken as bloodymindedness. And, human nature being what it is, likely to be paid back to the next unfortunate person they encounter. Thus making travel just a little less pleasant all around.
To me, lending someone a pen, helping them lift their bag, even swapping seats (if reasonably equitable) just helps make transit a less onerous part as travel. Even if they're clueless morons, as long as they're polite, I'll help out. If they come on as unpleasant demanding jerks, of course, I won't. And I will tell them directly and exactly why I'm not. Though I hold no illusion that will have any beneficial results to the true narcissists among us.
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Old Sep 12, 18, 5:51 pm
  #140  
 
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Originally Posted by Saint4805 View Post
It's also amazing how many men don't lift the toilet seat when they pee. I once walked into a toilet with the seat down and covered in urine, presumably from a guy who was in before me. I refused to clean it up but used tissue to lift the seat up. As I come out there's a super hot girl waiting to get in and so I had to apologise on the culprit's behalf making it clear that it wasn't me.
That is easily explainable. It is not their own house and they do not have to clean it. And they do not have to face anyone else (unlike you)
But not washing after using the bathroom and then eating or doing whatever? That does not make sense to me
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Old Sep 12, 18, 6:03 pm
  #141  
 
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Originally Posted by Proudelitist View Post
I don't suffer fools, and there are plenty of them in the air. It comes down to people not knowing how to travel and being ill prepared for it. Bags so heavy they have to impose on other passengers to lift them, ignorance of how to reserve seats or that seats are differentially priced so they end up demanding swaps or poaching, people trying to swim upstream after landing to get their bags from 9 rows back (and then trying to make their way back to their row for some bizarre reason) , people who don't prepare properly for TSA checks, and traveling without the common sense basics like a pen or a means to tell time.

It may not be a big deal for occasional fliers, but for those of us up there several times a week, it begins to grate on the nerves because it happens so incredibly often. I get tired of being a nanny to Kettles or worse to frequent fliers who should know better.

So yeah, the line in the sand is drawn.
Now you resort to a bunch of red herrings.
This is about a simple request to borrow a pen. You don't have to be a nanny to lend a pen, in my view you just have to be a decent human being. Even if it "grates on your nerves."
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Old Sep 12, 18, 7:28 pm
  #142  
 
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Originally Posted by Saint4805 View Post
It's also amazing how many men don't lift the toilet seat when they pee. I once walked into a toilet with the seat down and covered in urine, presumably from a guy who was in before me. I refused to clean it up but used tissue to lift the seat up. As I come out there's a super hot girl waiting to get in and so I had to apologise on the culprit's behalf making it clear that it wasn't me.
I agree it wasn't your responsibility to clean up after the guy before you.
But it's also not your responsibility to let somebody into a queue of slow/stopped traffic
Also not your responsibility to hold the door open for somebody behind you
It also isn't your responsibility to say "please" or "thanks" or to smile at the cashier.

None of these are responsibilities. They are, however, the sign of civilisation, of proper manners, and of generally being a good sort.

If you don't do these things, those of us with manners will think less of you. But it won't stop us treating you well. Because we understand that *even if we think you are a philistine, we should still treat you well*.

(And I wasn't even born in "the South", nor did I attend Harrow or anything of the sort)
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Old Sep 12, 18, 7:33 pm
  #143  
 
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Originally Posted by Proudelitist View Post
I don't suffer fools, and there are plenty of them in the air.
One can both (a) not suffer fools and (b) still remain polite.

Here's a hint: "This bill is wrong" vs. "I should think you might have accidentally mixed up my order - could you check?"
Both lead to you getting your money back. The latter one enables you both to save face (you if you got it wrong, them if they made a mistake."

Here's how you could (a) not suffer fools and (b) be polite.
"Might I borrow a pen?"
"Absolutely," (smiling) "I always think it's a good idea to have a pen, you never know who might ask for one!"

The recipient will understand exactly what you are saying, but you are doing it in a polite manner that leaves everyone feeling happy.
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Old Sep 12, 18, 8:14 pm
  #144  
 
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Originally Posted by akl_traveller View Post
One can both (a) not suffer fools and (b) still remain polite.

Here's a hint: "This bill is wrong" vs. "I should think you might have accidentally mixed up my order - could you check?"
Both lead to you getting your money back. The latter one enables you both to save face (you if you got it wrong, them if they made a mistake."

Here's how you could (a) not suffer fools and (b) be polite.
"Might I borrow a pen?"
"Absolutely," (smiling) "I always think it's a good idea to have a pen, you never know who might ask for one!"

The recipient will understand exactly what you are saying, but you are doing it in a polite manner that leaves everyone feeling happy.
I think you didn't mean to write "should", but if you did, I think "should" doesn't make it nice anymore.
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Old Sep 13, 18, 2:37 am
  #145  
 
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Originally Posted by s0ssos View Post
I think you didn't mean to write "should", but if you did, I think "should" doesn't make it nice anymore.
Should is correct; If you have a copy of Fowler's Modern English Usage look at "shall and will" (page 548 in my copy). You are correct that there may be even more pleasant ways of phrasing it, however e.g "Is it possible that you might have..."
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Old Sep 13, 18, 8:56 am
  #146  
 
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Originally Posted by Saint4805 View Post
As I come out there's a super hot girl waiting to get in and so I had to apologise on the culprit's behalf making it clear that it wasn't me.
Would you have apologized if she had not been "super hot?"
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Old Sep 13, 18, 9:21 am
  #147  
 
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Originally Posted by akl_traveller View Post
Should is correct; If you have a copy of Fowler's Modern English Usage look at "shall and will" (page 548 in my copy). You are correct that there may be even more pleasant ways of phrasing it, however e.g "Is it possible that you might have..."
If you look at the actual modern usage of the word "should", you will find that most people find impolite
"Should" means "ought to", "supposed to", ... Like you are telling someone what to do, as if they were a little kid.

Now, if you used "shall" it would just go over most people's head.
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Old Sep 13, 18, 9:49 am
  #148  
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Originally Posted by akl_traveller View Post
One can both (a) not suffer fools and (b) still remain polite.

Here's a hint: "This bill is wrong" vs. "I should think you might have accidentally mixed up my order - could you check?"
Both lead to you getting your money back. The latter one enables you both to save face (you if you got it wrong, them if they made a mistake."

Here's how you could (a) not suffer fools and (b) be polite.
"Might I borrow a pen?"
"Absolutely," (smiling) "I always think it's a good idea to have a pen, you never know who might ask for one!"

The recipient will understand exactly what you are saying, but you are doing it in a polite manner that leaves everyone feeling happy.
Seems condescending to me. The very nannying I am trying to avoid. I would simply say "Yes, here is my pen" and when they note that it is out of ink, I would apologize and watch as their pen problem deepens.
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Old Sep 13, 18, 11:19 am
  #149  
 
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Originally Posted by s0ssos View Post
If you look at the actual modern usage of the word "should", you will find that most people find impolite
"Should" means "ought to", "supposed to", ... Like you are telling someone what to do, as if they were a little kid.

Now, if you used "shall" it would just go over most people's head.
IME, in the UK at least, the construction in question is common and not at all impolite. It simply means something like "it's most likely that..." or "it is natural to think that...." Furthermore, the "should" applies to the speaker, not to the listener, so it is not telling the listener what to do.
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Old Sep 13, 18, 11:46 am
  #150  
 
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Originally Posted by LTBoston View Post
Would you have apologized if she had not been "super hot?"
Yes, unless it was Donald J Trump waiting.
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