and people who a skeptical of the crew training and the maintenance practices of ULCCs. Also the pitch in legacy Y- might be a few inches more than some ULCC.

My friendly neighborhood ULCC is Allegiant. They were having enough incidents in 2016-17 that often seemed to trace back to iffy maintenance that I'm still in a 'wait and see' mode even as they finish phasing out the MD-80s in favor of newer Airbuses.

I'm glad they're flying here and increasing competition, but prefer the safety standards and reliability of the legacies. Another reason to pick the basic economy option over the ULCC is IRROPS- yes, you're just above the buddy pass folks when it comes to IRROPS rebooking, but the odds are decent you'll get onward within 24 hours compared to days later/trip in vain if the ULCC decided to outright cancel a flight that only operated 2-3 times a week.

Again, I'm willing to pay more EuropeanPete but you are making the assumption that what I want is available. Air Canada mainline no longer fly the route I want to fly ie. Toronto to Edinburgh. Instead they fly it with their LCC Air Canada Rouge. Their Rouge planes are inferior to their mainline planes in terms of age, amenities, etc. So IF there are Premium seats available, they are still inferior to Premium seats on Air Canada mainline flights.

Second, is the IF seats are available. There is a limited number or Premium seats and as I generally do not book months in advance, they may well be sold out by the time I am ready to book. Booking an economy seat even with extra legroom can be a problem if you only book a couple of weeks ahead of flight date.

So it is not as simple as saying,'pay more and get what you want'. There are usually 200+ seats in the unacceptable economy seating but only 20+ (some planes even less) Premium seats. I am well aware of the costs in terms of 'real dollars' today vs. 30 years ago and as I have said, I am willing to pay. There are just not enough seats available or better airplanes even flying the route. Being willing to pay can't change that.

Should one be surprised that there arent more options for a longhaul direct from Toronto to a city housing 500k people, with no strong cultural or commercial connection, and only the 6th busiest airport in the UK?

If you're willing to pay, there is always the private route.

First, you are ignoring the fact that there were direct flights on mainline AC before. Those flights have now been handed over to Rouge. You are incorrect to say there are not 'strong cultural' connections. That is why the direct routes are being flown at all. It has nothing to do with the size of the city being flown to. The Toronto to Scotland routes are probably one of the highest traffic 'cultural connection' routes to be found anywhere. Here are the 5 largest number of Canadians by ethnic origin. English6,320,085Scottish4,799,010French4,670,595Irish4,627,000German3,322,4052016 Census

As it happens, Scotland is the only one of those 5 where there is no mainline AC direct flights any more.

A further note on suggestions to upgrade to Premium Economy on Rouge as some have suggested. Have you read the reviews on Rouge? It is next to impossible to find one positive review of Rouge regardless of what class you look at flying.

As for flying the private route. That isn't an answer, it's just a silly non-answer.

Those are great arguments for buying the $207 (regular) fare. Compared to that, the $182 is a lousy value. If it were Spirit at $32, DL Basic at $100, and DL Regular at $200, I'd quite possibly consider the DL Basic fare. But it's never that...I always see it *barely* below the regular coach fare.

And I totally agree on the maintenance concerns in some cases. Allegiant's Mad Dogs can all buy their own booze at this point, and looking at which airlines have owned/leased each one is like a walk down 1990s memory lane. (Hello, Vanguard, Midway, and Reno Air!!) Makes me wonder which of the frames Aeromexico is flying today that Allegiant will be flying 15 years from now. :eek:

I've been on ULCCs quite a bit, mainly NK and F9 but also Air Asia and Sky Airline when I'm in those parts of the world.

Anecdotally I'd have to say the cramped seating is far and away the #1 passenger gripe. You're making nearly the whole plane suffer to add 2 more rows, and anyone above a certain height (would guesstimate 5'10" or so, maybe less) is likely to have knees pinned to the seat in front with limited mobility and having to shift between maybe 2-3 positions at most, with knees unable to un-bend and not being able to get legs or feet fully under the seat in front (and this assumes no bag taking up that space).

It's an area that screams for government intervention because only the government can level the playing field. If the playing field is level and no one can try to profit by making things even more cramped, then they'll just compete on something else.

They'll need a good scientific basis like heightened DVT risk or something along those lines, but as you get longer routes with the 27-28" seat pitches, I think we'll see more problems. It should be common sense, but airlines are willing to ditch that if it interferes with profits.

I don't understand what all the moaning is about. If you want a return to 70s style economy service, just buy what today is called premium economy. It costs more than regular economy, but I expect it's probably at or below the real cost of what 70s economy used to be.

I think the pricing structure in the example is done on purpose. DL wants you to think that the $207 is the "best value" and people that look for value will take the $207 fare, but obviously there are sufficient people buying the basic fare at $182 (judging by my previous experience there are plenty of such people who sees that they are "saving" $25).

Did you read my last response LondonElite? I've already said I am prepared to pay more for '70s style economy service'. The problem is that it is hard to even do that on some routes. Here is what I USED to be able to book.

London, Ontario, Canada - Toronto - Edinburgh. A short hop from the first regional airport to YYZ and then direct to EDI. The only way I can book that now is either with an LCC from Toronto (including Air Canada Rouge) or if I want to use a mainline carrier, I have to add connections in London, England, Dublin, Amsterdam, etc. Air Canada used to fly direct from Toronto to Edinburgh or Glasgow. Now they have handed that route over to Rouge. If you look at reviews for Rouge, you will have a very hard time finding any positive comments.
Air Canada rouge Customer Reviews | SKYTRAX

So for my upcoming flight I have had to book London(YXU)- Toronto (YYZ) - London (LHR) - Edinburgh (EDI) and return. Premium Economy is not available on the first or last leg, only on the transatlantic leg and I have booked that. So how do you suggest I get '70s economy service' when it isn't available on 2 counts, direct flights and PE seating on 2 legs? The fare as booked is $4760 for 2 people. It isn't just about being willing to pay obviously.

Now tell me what it is you don't understand 'what all the moaning is about'.

Look, you live in Canada and I grew up there in the 70s and 80s, so I'll assume we both know what travel in the 'olden days' was like. Air Canada was a Crown Corporation losing money hand over fist, in part because it was mandated to serve northern and other isolated communities at great expense with capped revenues. If you want to maintain a model like that, fine, as long as you can get the taxpayer on board. On an individual country level that might work, but in the context of the global market you don't stand a chance. Canada is, I will admit, a unique aviation market given its population concentration in five or six markets, spread across a huge area, with the rest of the country sparsely populated but reliant on fly-in, fly-out services.

But to your specific issue, PE is available on the only segment that matters (YYZ-LHR). Unless you live significantly west of London, I'd even drive to Toronto to fly from there. The EDI flight is about 50 minutes.

Without turning this into a case study, I get what you are saying. Y used to be a lot better than it is now. I agree. But it has also gotten ridiculously cheap, and you have far more options than you ever had before. C and F have massively improved all around (I remember flying on LH C class YUL-FRA in the early 1980s and it was not nearly as nice as LH PE is now). I think you need to accept the new realities. ;)

London (ON) to YYZ is like a 2 hour drive. This is an entirely silly straw man.

There are lots of ways to get from Toronto to Scotland in the relative comfort of a PE seat or the greater comfort of a J seat at price points that are better in real terms than regular Y or J were in the 1970s. The only difference now is that you have a new super-cheap, uncomfortable option in the back of the bus that didn't exist before. I've flown a lot of long-haul F and I've flown a lot of deep-discount last-minute $400-R/T-to-Europe Y (that I didn't or couldn't upgrade). I'm glad both exist.

I'm in stunned disbelief that an adult believes the government creates level playing fields. They literally do nothing except create corporate monopolies. Anyone who wants the government to enact regulation over the private sector should be forced to drink a gallon of bleach.