Why aren't sleeping cars on overnight trains used more?
#31
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It's not a sleeper service as such but the Eurostar overnight ski train to Bourg St. Maurice is amazingly time efficient. Leave the office at normal time on a Friday, pick up the 8pm from St. Pancras and be on the slopes first thing Saturday. By air, the earliest you could hit the slopes would be after lunch on Saturday, and that's assuming you take a stupidly early flight which gives you no sleep (like the train), and that you hit Geneva and the motorways on a (rare) benign day. Same on the return.
#32
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It's not just LCCs decimating them in Europe, it's high speed day trains. Why go for an overnight journey from Paris to Frankfurt, when the day train now takes less than 4 hours?
I do enjoy (and sleep well on) both overnight trains and ferries, and use them on occasion, particularly when they save me a lot of travel time (they're effectively using up "dead time"). But I can see how they're difficult to run, particularly as a niche enterprise. Not only do you have to staff the train, but also all the signalling (depending on the freight usage of the lines), any stations they call at, often coordinate fairly elaborate recoupling and locomotive changing exercises in the dead of night... And that's often with quirky, legacy stock which is difficult to maintain and sees fairly intensive usage to make it pay. The glory days are definitely over, but I can see some niche lines remaining. There's currently some really impressive investment into the Caledonian Sleeper, for example:
Caledonian Sleeper ? The dawn of the new sleeper train
I do enjoy (and sleep well on) both overnight trains and ferries, and use them on occasion, particularly when they save me a lot of travel time (they're effectively using up "dead time"). But I can see how they're difficult to run, particularly as a niche enterprise. Not only do you have to staff the train, but also all the signalling (depending on the freight usage of the lines), any stations they call at, often coordinate fairly elaborate recoupling and locomotive changing exercises in the dead of night... And that's often with quirky, legacy stock which is difficult to maintain and sees fairly intensive usage to make it pay. The glory days are definitely over, but I can see some niche lines remaining. There's currently some really impressive investment into the Caledonian Sleeper, for example:
Caledonian Sleeper ? The dawn of the new sleeper train
#33
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US gave up on passenger train service for car/highway culture in the 50s/60s. At this point, trains work for short distance city center to city center (NorthEast Corridor is a good example) but not profitable or wise in rural freight locations as trains are often delayed/slow. The most profitable Amtrak routes are 4 hrs or less trips so investing in sleeper cars which can't financially compete with LCC air and significantly slower service wouldn't make sense.
I give you an example of a trip that would make a good overnight (leave evening and arrive AM) - NYC to Montreal via train takes 10-11 hrs with a cost of $70-150. Flying would take 1+ hrs (cost a bit more plus far away from city center on both ends). Driving would take 6 hrs. Bus takes 7-8 hrs and cheaper vs. train.
The train is ideal for those with stops in between the two major cities but anyone else with a care about time would prefer alternate methods.
I think one of hte longest routes is New Orleans to LA which it constantly late and I believe loses money due to delays and limited passengers. Just not profitable or able to compete with air or car culture.
I give you an example of a trip that would make a good overnight (leave evening and arrive AM) - NYC to Montreal via train takes 10-11 hrs with a cost of $70-150. Flying would take 1+ hrs (cost a bit more plus far away from city center on both ends). Driving would take 6 hrs. Bus takes 7-8 hrs and cheaper vs. train.
The train is ideal for those with stops in between the two major cities but anyone else with a care about time would prefer alternate methods.
I think one of hte longest routes is New Orleans to LA which it constantly late and I believe loses money due to delays and limited passengers. Just not profitable or able to compete with air or car culture.
#34
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Funny that this topic should come up because I looked into this a bit on Saturday when I was at the Trenton Transit Center to take NJ Transit to Newark for an event. It was about the same time that the Crescent was supposed to be passing through on its way from New Orleans to NY Penn. Out of curiosity, I looked at how long it would take from Trenton to New Orleans and the answer was 29h15m. It was also over $1K R/T for a sleeper. I admit, I looked at last minute prices but from Trenton I can get to four airports that have non-stop flights (five when Spirit starts up from Atlantic City) so I've got plenty of flying options. Losing a whole day to get there just doesn't seem to work for me.
#35
Join Date: Apr 2007
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We have taken sleepers many times each in Continental Europe, UK (Caledonian), Scandinavia, the US, and Japan. It is kind of a hobby. Back in the old days we weren't above using the layflat seats in first class compartments for sleeping as did other passengers. It still remains a possibility for being on the train for long trips or for saving time and a night in a hotel and avoiding the time and hassle of navigating airports. I agree with the fact that a sleeper compartment is hardly competitive with an actual hotel and can be expensive. It would also seem that it may be more and more difficult to economically support this kind of service.
#36
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While not a sleeper for this particular segment, we have an ideal KC-to-Chicago train that I would use more often if the process of using it was remotely modern and user-friendly. Leaves early morning, gets you to Chicago midafternoon. Leaves Chicago midafternoon, gets you to KC late evening. 7 hours each way - faster than driving and not much slower than flying if your end destination is downtown Chicago (which ours usually is).
The problem? Both directions require extensive queuing and you cannot prebook seat assignments. My basic expectation of a train service is that I can arrive on the platform 30 seconds before the train gets there, board said train, have my ticket scanned on my phone, and take my assigned seat. That's basic 21st century table stakes. With Amtrak, there are two huge queues - one forms an hour before the train arrives up in the departure terminal an hour prior to departure, and the 2nd forms near the train to get your assigned seats. Both of these things are bad process.
Onboard, I'd like decent food and fast Wifi, two things this train also does not have. (I understand some Amtrak trains have wifi, but all seem to have food offerings firmly stuck in 1975.) However, I'd probably look past those shortcomings if the process was better. The entire value prop of a train ride is ease of use vs. flying. The TSA process, getting to the gate early, and the other hassles of airports are how a 7-hour train ride can actually compete. Amtrak seems to totally kill that advantage. Most European train systems get it right - or at least a lot closer to ideal.
#37
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: New York
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I think it is possible that a sleeper could be added to this train after the delivery of the new cars, but that is mostly my own wishful thinking. I do not think there would be a separate sleeper for occupancy in New York before / after the train time. I heard that there was no security for the sleeping passengers at Penn Station, and this might be a major problem nowadays.
#38
Join Date: Aug 2000
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In the EU, overnight trains have been decimated by LCCs. Demand has been going down year after year, resulting in elimination of many routes that fail to make a profit. The only place where you'll find them is Eastern Europe (Ukraine, Russia, Belarus, etc.) where they're still the primary way of intercity travel.
The first couple of chapters of this recent study provides some insights on conventional night trains.
The first couple of chapters of this recent study provides some insights on conventional night trains.
#39
Join Date: Aug 2000
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Don't confuse couchettes with sleepers. Couchettes were introduced on overnight European trains in the 1950s to offer cheap accommodation to an impoverished postwar populace that could finally travel and overcome some of the horrors of the war. They offer just bunks with a pillow and blanket, so one could get some sleep, but they could never compare with real sleepers which offered a real bed with washbasin and more recently a private toilet and shower down the hall. One could also get undressed for sleep in the sleepers, but not in the couchettes. Sleepers had one, two or three beds (today generally one or two), couchettes generally six, sometimes four bunks per cabin and no washbasin. Both couchettes and sleepers have gradually disappeared from European trains, the couchettes perhaps even more quickly than the sleepers, as travelers could afford more expensive options.
#40
Join Date: Apr 2007
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Couchettes are routinely available in many French Intercity services.....I used one from Chateauroux to Paris not too long ago.... but they are pretty poor......I actually quite like the AMTRAK sleeper services... but then I can book well in advance and pay little more than the cheapest flight + cheap hotel equivalents Thoroughly enjoyed the CHI-SAC trip which is the longest I've done... I also caught one that dropped our sleeper carriage off (in DFW??) in the middle of the night while we slept on.....
#41
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It all depends on the rail network. It works in China due to the high-speed rail network and the willpower of the government to implement it.
#42
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In the last 4 years I’ve taken a sleeper from Montreal to Moncton in Canada, and from Inverness to London in the UK. I love sleeper trains and would take them more often if I could, but on Amtrak it really doesn’t make sense. The only route I really want is Wilmington DE to New Orleans, and it’s dramatically worse than flying in every way: easily 3x the cost if you’re going to do the trip in comfort, always delayed, and slow as molasses. If there were a train that did this 1700-mile trip in, say, 18-20 hours rather than 28+, I’d consider it just for the fun factor. But as it stands...it just makes no sense when the door-to-door trip by plane takes less than 6 hours.
#43
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I've just been working on a trip plan to the Central European and Balkan capitals using trains as the primary mode.
I find that there is still night train service between Munich (my planned entry to Europe) and Budapest or between Prague and Budapest. Fairly reasonable pricing. But definitely, per the OP, underutilized. Many departures only carry one or two sleeping cars and many travelers report that tickets are obtainable on the night of travel.
I find that there is still night train service between Munich (my planned entry to Europe) and Budapest or between Prague and Budapest. Fairly reasonable pricing. But definitely, per the OP, underutilized. Many departures only carry one or two sleeping cars and many travelers report that tickets are obtainable on the night of travel.
While a plane may be faster, the train was less than plane + room + transport from airport. I also was able to arrive at the train station with 15 minutes to spare, instead of 90 minutes to two hours, and saved the time of travel to the airport.
Personal opinion? I love sleeper trains when theyre economically competitive.
Amtrak? No, Ill take a plane. Not generally price worthy, unless Im travelling with someone else and can split the cost of the sleeper.
#45
Formerly known as caveruner17
Join Date: Feb 2012
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I took an overnight train last fall from Munich to Venice. If I remember right, it was around 110 EUR or so. Overall, it saved me a decent amount of money because it was Oktoberfest in Munich, so my cheap dorm bed in a hostel was running me 60EUR/night and my AirBnB in Venice was around 45EUR/night too. Not to mention, non-stop flights from Munich to Venice I was finding were closer to $150+ in addition to the travel costs to and from the airport.
Long story short, it was fine. - 4 beds per cabin and we had a pastry, juice and coffee served in the morning. I probably got 5 hours or so of sleep, so while I wasn't fully rested, it wasn't horrible. Better than I sleep on planes in Y at least. My only complaint was that they had an intermediate stop an hour or so after we left Munich in Salzburg and let on additional travelers. This woke me up at like 12:30AM and didn't help much with the sleep. I wish they would have arranged the cabins so that you didnt have people coming and going in the middle of the night and instead have everyone from Munich take the first 3 cabins and then everyone from Salzburg take the next 3
Long story short, it was fine. - 4 beds per cabin and we had a pastry, juice and coffee served in the morning. I probably got 5 hours or so of sleep, so while I wasn't fully rested, it wasn't horrible. Better than I sleep on planes in Y at least. My only complaint was that they had an intermediate stop an hour or so after we left Munich in Salzburg and let on additional travelers. This woke me up at like 12:30AM and didn't help much with the sleep. I wish they would have arranged the cabins so that you didnt have people coming and going in the middle of the night and instead have everyone from Munich take the first 3 cabins and then everyone from Salzburg take the next 3