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Why actually the 3 legacy have bad reputation?

Why actually the 3 legacy have bad reputation?

Old Oct 18, 2017, 9:56 am
  #16  
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The state of US domestic airlines is squarely a market result. People have shown time and again that 95% of their purchase decision is based on price, and airlines have been trying to take prices lower and lower. This is what gives us Basic Economy fares.

Fees for bags are here because AA realized that people would pay them - and the other airlines quickly piled on. This is why we should be encouraging competition and breaking up the mega-three oligopoly.
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Old Oct 18, 2017, 7:27 pm
  #17  
 
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Originally Posted by pinniped
Or I want supersonic aircraft.
It is absolutely remarkable to me how slow passenger planes are.

And they'll get even better and cheaper once we move away from internal-combustion engines.
Absolutely not. This is sacrilege.
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Old Oct 19, 2017, 1:29 am
  #18  
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Originally Posted by tmiw
Meanwhile, people seem much happier with WN because there's no expectation of anything other than a seat on a plane for the price paid. (The happier FAs don't hurt either.)
Southwest generally plays it straight, much more so than the Big 3 and in ways that SHOULD be common sense but aren't at many carriers.

They acknowledge that it's unrealistic to expect people to travel without any luggage, and with no extra cost for the checked bags there's less pressure on the carry-ons and that mad scramble.

They also don't view change fees as a huge gouge opportunity and profit center, though "difference in fare" can still bite you (but you get that AND the fee with the legacies).

The cabin air is also very dry, typically, and they offer some drinks without charging.

The one exception is IMO how the open seating has devolved. Thirty years ago that was a well-known no-frills feature (PeopleExpress, etc.). It lent itself to an uncivilized boarding process, though, so WN has come up with the boarding groups and the pecking order and a chance to buy your way to the front and all that. But given that NK and F9 (and others) have reserved seats (albeit usually as an opportunity to charge another fee), I think WN's process looks a bit outdated.

With the legacies it's just been one unfavorable thing after another for passengers, especially if you look at the longer view.
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Old Oct 19, 2017, 7:19 am
  #19  
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Originally Posted by RustyC
Southwest generally plays it straight, much more so than the Big 3 and in ways that SHOULD be common sense but aren't at many carriers.

They acknowledge that it's unrealistic to expect people to travel without any luggage, and with no extra cost for the checked bags there's less pressure on the carry-ons and that mad scramble.

They also don't view change fees as a huge gouge opportunity and profit center, though "difference in fare" can still bite you (but you get that AND the fee with the legacies).

The cabin air is also very dry, typically, and they offer some drinks without charging.

The one exception is IMO how the open seating has devolved. Thirty years ago that was a well-known no-frills feature (PeopleExpress, etc.). It lent itself to an uncivilized boarding process, though, so WN has come up with the boarding groups and the pecking order and a chance to buy your way to the front and all that. But given that NK and F9 (and others) have reserved seats (albeit usually as an opportunity to charge another fee), I think WN's process looks a bit outdated.

With the legacies it's just been one unfavorable thing after another for passengers, especially if you look at the longer view.
I generally agree with WN's straightforwardness. My main bone to pick with them is that they have invested almost nothing in their online and mobile presences. IROPS support is poor at best, and the app and website are both brittle and susceptible to widespread outages.

I had a business trip 2 years ago where a few of us were flying WN. At T-24, I was able to successfully OLCI...but my colleagues waited an hour or so and by then the website had gone down. They were never able to check in, and we arrived at the airport to find a huge queue for the airport kiosks. They had to buy walk-up AA tickets and fight for their WN refunds later, while I flew home on WN on a flight with 50 empty seats - probably because so many people couldn't get boarding passes or buy last-minute tickets. This was ex-LGA and (I think) corresponded to one of their systemwide sales. I remember reading about it on FT that night and people all over the U.S. and in many airports were having similar problems.

I'm still (generally) a WN fan - mainly because they fly a bunch of ex-MCI nonstops that would otherwise be a connection on a legacy - but I don't fully trust them as I once did. 10 years ago, they were a unique brand that I viewed differently from other airlines. Over the years they had attained that unique space where brands emotionally connect with their users. (Apple, Nordstrom, Starbucks, etc.) That's no longer the case: they're just another airline, albeit one that's a bit more user-friendly than others. When the systems are working...
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Old Oct 19, 2017, 10:07 am
  #20  
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Originally Posted by RustyC
The one exception is IMO how the open seating has devolved. Thirty years ago that was a well-known no-frills feature (PeopleExpress, etc.). It lent itself to an uncivilized boarding process, though, so WN has come up with the boarding groups and the pecking order and a chance to buy your way to the front and all that. But given that NK and F9 (and others) have reserved seats (albeit usually as an opportunity to charge another fee), I think WN's process looks a bit outdated.
Pre-assigned seats slows down boarding, which can be an issue when WN wants to turn the planes quickly.

Also, given how many times the frequent flyer elites here complain about losing their pre-assigned seats for various reasons or no obvious reason, that situation is probably worse for non-elite passengers. This can be more problematic for non-elite families trying to sit together on UA/AA/DL.
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Old Oct 19, 2017, 10:14 am
  #21  
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WN's boarding process itself is the most civilized of any U.S. carrier. The numbered BP's completely eliminate the gate lice problem.

We can disagree on whether the process is good or bad for elites, whether EBCI is worth it, what type of specific policy Southwest should provide re: seat saving, etc.

But the boarding process itself works marvelously. They often don't even start loading a plane until 20 minutes prior to departure, yet they have everybody seated to push back on time.

After a few WN flights, I find it jarring to fly a legacy carrier with their crush of people at the gates, many trying to board early and GA's (sometimes) trying to control the mob.

Even on Emirates - an otherwise awesome airline - a few days ago, the boarding process was chaos because passengers did not have explicit instructions, a clearly-marked place to queue, and a well-defined sequence for boarding. (ex-HYD. ex-DXB from the J lounge was markedly better, although it could have been a mess for Y pax and I didn't see it.)

Other airlines could learn something from Southwest's numeric BPs, even those that have assigned seats and multiple cabins.
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Old Oct 19, 2017, 10:38 am
  #22  
 
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No domestic competition anymore and a sense of entitlement from their employees who don't fear being fired.
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Old Oct 20, 2017, 11:47 am
  #23  
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Originally Posted by pinniped
WN's boarding process itself is the most civilized of any U.S. carrier. The numbered BP's completely eliminate the gate lice problem...

Other airlines could learn something from Southwest's numeric BPs, even those that have assigned seats and multiple cabins.
I agree. And one big factor is, the Southwest queue-by-number, make-friends-with-your-linemates system is explicitly transparent and egalitarian. There is little or no class-tier friction, no weird resentment of the A-1-15 crowd. It's all right out there. This relaxes people and quells suspicions that they're being screwed. If you got B-59, you got B-59. It wasn't because you didn't have some special card or code, or you were excluded, mean-sorority-wise, from an arrangement other, smarter people helped themselves to.

Whereas a boarding process with nine discrete zones, plus preboards... all based on inscrutable, indecipherable status lines either earned or purchased... is virtually designed to make people mad. You're told you have "priority boarding," yet you're in BG 4 or 5? Behind 100+ others? You're a last-minute flyer and you're in BG7? The system has got to be screwing with people. So the crowd thinks.

The US3 have (for the most part) wrecked their reputations by failing to meet expectations -- for honesty, humanity, reasonableness, competence in irrops, transactional fairness, you name it. It's not that the snacks are inedible; it's that you always feel forced to play chess against the airline, and that the deck appears stacked against most mortals. That is not the story on Southwest, when it comes to boarding and a lot of other stuff.
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Old Oct 20, 2017, 1:08 pm
  #24  
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Originally Posted by kb9522
It is absolutely remarkable to me how slow passenger planes are.
600 mph is slow? Perhaps you'd prefer to drive? Take a boat?

Originally Posted by Statman
No domestic competition anymore and a sense of entitlement from their employees who don't fear being fired.
Bingo.
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Old Oct 20, 2017, 1:30 pm
  #25  
 
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Originally Posted by gfunkdave
600 mph is slow? Perhaps you'd prefer to drive? Take a boat?



Bingo.
You're missing the point. How much has the speed of commercial aircraft changed in the last 50 years?
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Old Oct 20, 2017, 2:25 pm
  #26  
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Originally Posted by kb9522
How much has the speed of commercial aircraft changed in the last 50 years?
It's gotten a little slower. DC-8s flew at Mach 0.85. Most flights today operate at Mach 0.82 or so.

As for supersonic, my comment was kind of in jest...but only kind of. I was saying if we're going to stay on a stable, proven platform such as, say, a 737, then YES I expect it to continually get cheaper and better.

If, however, new aircraft were coming out every 3 or 4 years that were progressively faster than previous ones, I'd expect trade offs in other areas. Either higher costs, or yielding on some other feature like space, ability to bring X weight on board with me, etc.

(We have other threads about the economics or aerodynamics of flying supersonic. Those issues are why I say "kind of" in jest...it was more of a simplistic observation, akin to my current laptop being "supersonic" compared to the one I owned 5 years ago.)
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Old Oct 21, 2017, 1:38 pm
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Originally Posted by kb9522
You're missing the point. How much has the speed of commercial aircraft changed in the last 50 years?
well the speed of landcraft havent changed much either. its governed by basically engine power vs aero resistance and theres not a magical but practical hull shape they havent discovered.

theres only so much that can be done to defeat physics

what they have done is made planes lighter and engines more efficient which helps with fuel consumption...on top of reliability, smoothness, etc
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Old Oct 21, 2017, 3:01 pm
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Originally Posted by deniah
well the speed of landcraft havent changed much either. its governed by basically engine power vs aero resistance and theres not a magical but practical hull shape they havent discovered.

theres only so much that can be done to defeat physics

what they have done is made planes lighter and engines more efficient which helps with fuel consumption...on top of reliability, smoothness, etc
Of course they have. The Ferrari Daytona had a top speed of 174 mph. The Veyron can reach speeds of 268. It's nonsense to suggest cars haven't gotten faster since the 60s.

On the other hand, as pinniped points out above, aircraft have gotten slower!
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Old Oct 21, 2017, 5:04 pm
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Originally Posted by kb9522
Of course they have. The Ferrari Daytona had a top speed of 174 mph. The Veyron can reach speeds of 268. It's nonsense to suggest cars haven't gotten faster since the 60s.

On the other hand, as pinniped points out above, aircraft have gotten slower!
Its nonsense to interpret "change much" as "at all".

The veyron is an outlier. Almost all other hypercars (laferrari, p1, 918) and other ultra exotics (f12tdf, Aventador, etc) don't move too far off the speeds established by the 959...sustained by the xj220,

Formula one hit 200 in-race in 1980s and haven't gone much higher since.

Obviously there are tons of factors (regulations, purpose, etc) that affect these, but did you expect some constant , linear increase?

My point wasn't that speeds haven't increased. In fact the opposite - they do increase, but at slower pace as they've been hovering around the practical ceiling , as opposed to the theoretical /no-holds-barred ceiling.

Jet fuel costs a lot more and per/pax revenue is a lot less. There's no point in designing or operating a commercial plane at faster speeds.

Just like there is no point in designing an f1 car to reach 300 when tires and fuel capacity won't sustain that speed
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Old Oct 21, 2017, 8:03 pm
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Originally Posted by deniah
Its nonsense to interpret "change much" as "at all".

The veyron is an outlier. Almost all other hypercars (laferrari, p1, 918) and other ultra exotics (f12tdf, Aventador, etc) don't move too far off the speeds established by the 959...sustained by the xj220,

Formula one hit 200 in-race in 1980s and haven't gone much higher since.

Obviously there are tons of factors (regulations, purpose, etc) that affect these, but did you expect some constant , linear increase?

My point wasn't that speeds haven't increased. In fact the opposite - they do increase, but at slower pace as they've been hovering around the practical ceiling , as opposed to the theoretical /no-holds-barred ceiling.

Jet fuel costs a lot more and per/pax revenue is a lot less. There's no point in designing or operating a commercial plane at faster speeds.

Just like there is no point in designing an f1 car to reach 300 when tires and fuel capacity won't sustain that speed
With this mentality we'd still be smashing coconuts open with rocks for sustenance. There is absolutely a point in designing faster and better vehicles, whether land, sea, or air... and that is to spur innovation.
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