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Travel Expenses: Dumb Things your Company has Done

Travel Expenses: Dumb Things your Company has Done

Old Jan 23, 2019, 3:37 am
  #436  
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Originally Posted by der_saeufer
This. Government does a lot of stupid stuff, but this isn't one of them. Excepting the situation where employees are expected to buy for others (e.g. entertaining clients), I don't understand why any organization feels the need to kill trees and waste time scrutinizing receipts for travelers' meal expenses. Set a fair per diem, pay it to everyone and be done with it. If the hotel breakfast is inedible, who cares if I spend $10 getting something edible down the road? If I want to make instant ramen in my hotel room coffee pot for 3 meals a day and save the rest towards a BMW, who but my cardiologist cares? And if I want to spend twice the per diem eating at really nice restaurants, it's my money anyway.

Treating your employees like kindergarteners just breeds resentment--especially when you're micromanaging something as personal and as irrelevant to work as people's food choices... and I say this as someone who's the exact opposite of a picky eater.
+1

and +1 to cbn42's comment above

The original complaint was that an employee traveling on business should be able to expense a breakfast of their own choosing instead of the complimentary hotel breakfast. If they're paid per diem, the complaint woudn't exist because anything you spend above the per diem is out of your own pocket.

Doing per diem would solve two problems -- no need to go through a bunch of receipts, deciding which are okay and which are not -- as well as the picky eaters who can pay out of pocket for their tastes.
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Old Jan 23, 2019, 5:46 am
  #437  
 
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Originally Posted by cbn42
Following that logic, if the hotel is good enough for you to stay at, their food should be good enough for you to eat. I don't think it's proper to have a higher standard for food than for accommodation.
I think it's often a case of someone having a similar standard for "decent" accommodation and food.

There are plenty of hotels where the accommodation is good to great but the free breakfast borders on inedible even if you're not at all picky. Mid-range American chain hotels are, IMO, the worst offenders. I've stayed at plenty of perfectly good Holiday Inn Express, Hampton, Country Inn, etc. properties where the rooms were nice, clean, and in good repair, but they served crumbly powdered eggs, sketchy long shelf life gas station pastries, stale Wonder bread and a brown liquid claiming to be coffee. That said, I've also stayed at properties in the same chain where breakfast was great.

...but I was on per diem anyway, so no one but me cares that I immediately went to the nearest coffee shop

Originally Posted by cbn42
But personally, I tend to not trust those who demand to be trusted and object to scrutiny of their actions. If your expenses are appropriate, you should have no problem justifying them when requested. If this bothers you, I would not trust you to make decisions on someone else's behalf. Ultimately, people who get defensive and indignant when questioned are often the ones who are more likely to be hiding something.
When requested, sure, either as part of an auditing process or when the expenses look out of the ordinary. But when an employer automatically assumes that an employee who doesn't have a receipt for a $3 coffee is trying to pull one over on the company and refuses to pay for it, it's not at all unreasonable for even the most honest employee to feel unnecessarily micromanaged. (This is a real example from a company I briefly worked for ~5 years ago)

Originally Posted by Kevin AA
The original complaint was that an employee traveling on business should be able to expense a breakfast of their own choosing instead of the complimentary hotel breakfast. If they're paid per diem, the complaint woudn't exist because anything you spend above the per diem is out of your own pocket.
This actually still comes up in a per diem context. If I stay at a hotel that's within the allowable rate that includes free breakfast, do I have to knock that off my per diem? Uncle Sam's answer is no, as long as the breakfast is actually free (i.e. the rate always includes breakfast). Believe it or not, the interpretation of "included" has even been dragged through the Civilian Board of Claims Appeals a couple times.
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Last edited by der_saeufer; Jan 23, 2019 at 6:02 am
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Old Jan 23, 2019, 6:47 am
  #438  
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Depends on whether it is worth the employer's while to delve that deeply into how funds are expended. It also then requires the employer to define what is an "adequate" breakfast. If one cuts the per diem allowance when breakfast is included, does that only happen if there are eggs, or is it muffins, or is it bacon and eggs?

The whole point of the per diem system was to get rid of paying employees to have their assistants enter data into a form and possibly scan in receipts and then paying people to review those forms and attachments. If one pays a per diem, it is simply calculated as $X times the number of days (or perhaps half days) of travel and that is the end of it. This leaves a hotel bill and perhaps some local transport depending on the nature of the trip. If all of this extra work can reduce the total cost of inputting, reviewing and paying expenses from $40 to $20 per submission, a few extra eggs here and there won't matter.
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Old Jan 23, 2019, 8:18 am
  #439  
 
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I worked for a place that had a set rate for accomodation and a flat rate per diem based on location. E.g. if the rate was set at $200 for accomodation, you could stay at a holiday inn for $100 and pocket the difference or the Four Seasons for the full $200 (FYI - I stayed at several at an even lower corporate rate). Same for per diem - flat rate and do as you wish and pocket the difference, if any. If accomodation and/or (some) meals where provided that component would be deducted. Very simple, cheap to administer, and based on research cost neutral to the bottom line.
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Old Jan 23, 2019, 8:58 am
  #440  
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Originally Posted by cbn42
Following that logic, if the hotel is good enough for you to stay at, their food should be good enough for you to eat. I don't think it's proper to have a higher standard for food than for accommodation.

I'm sure you realize the difference between performing your job duties (where you have no personal stake in the contract you are signing on the company's behalf) and reimbursement of your expenses (where you definitely have a personal stake).

But personally, I tend to not trust those who demand to be trusted and object to scrutiny of their actions. If your expenses are appropriate, you should have no problem justifying them when requested. If this bothers you, I would not trust you to make decisions on someone else's behalf. Ultimately, people who get defensive and indignant when questioned are often the ones who are more likely to be hiding something.
There are very many instances where the contracts signed could have benefits to the individual responsible for signing, especially in jurisdictions where ethics are more loosey goosey. Even on the above board side, there could be inducements for an individual, for example (to put it in FT terms) someone signing a contract with a hotel for a company retreat because they were offered personal points / miles despite the fact it would cost the company an extra $20,000 compared to another property. You have to trust that the individual will act in the interests of the company regardless of personal inducements.

As a result of the work we do, the type of relationships we have etc. we don't really have expense policies - no maximum amounts, no per diems, if someone loses a receipt chances are no one will even ask the question. There isn't even a standard expense form to be completed, and most people throw receipts in an envelope and let accounting work it out. Since there is inference that I somehow have an issue with scrutiny, I will point out every single expense I send to accounting is itemized on a spreadsheet, sorted by transaction type and then by date, with a short description where necessary. I keep track of cash expenses without receipts meticulously (such as tips) while away, and submit them in detail as well, even tho no one would bat an eyelid if I said "$200 on tips" instead. All receipts are photocopied, and filed with a copy of the spreadsheet. This is in part selfish (I have had accounting mess up and send back cheques for far less than the expenses) and in part because I want to ensure everything is documented, should anyone have questions down the line (I won't remember what a receipt written in Japanese characters was for 3 months down the road, but if it is on the spreadsheet I know it was a client dinner, where a senior person insisted on ordering champagne, hence the higher than normal amount).

On the food v hotel thing, that is a weird claim. It's like saying that because you chose to fly American Airlines, you shouldn't have dinner before you fly because the onboard mystery meat should be good enough because you chose the airline. I have stayed in hotels where it was literally the only option in the town, doesn't mean their receptionist cum bellboy cum chef can make anything edible. In places with more than one option, it seems you are saying it makes sense to opt for the Ritz Carlton at $800 a night because they have a breakfast I think is decent and a room I think is decent, rather than the perfectly adequate hotel room at a lower end hotel for $300 a night that serves awful food options, and spend $15 on breakfast elsewhere. Hey, I will stay at the RC if that is the choice, no issue, but why would the quality of a hotel room and bed have anything to do with the quality of the food (especially in places where the hotel outsources F&B to a chain that rents space in their property).
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Old Jan 23, 2019, 9:15 am
  #441  
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Originally Posted by erik123
I worked for a place that had a set rate for accomodation and a flat rate per diem based on location. E.g. if the rate was set at $200 for accomodation, you could stay at a holiday inn for $100 and pocket the difference or the Four Seasons for the full $200 (FYI - I stayed at several at an even lower corporate rate). Same for per diem - flat rate and do as you wish and pocket the difference, if any. If accomodation and/or (some) meals where provided that component would be deducted. Very simple, cheap to administer, and based on research cost neutral to the bottom line.
Hopefully not in the recent past. At least in the US/

IRS rules permit employers to establish reasonable flat rate per diems for food and other related expenses, but not so for hotels (or more precisely, overnight accommodations). If you are allowed $90 for meals and spend $10, you may pocket the $80 without tax consequences. However, if you are allowed $200 per night for a hotel and spend $100 and pocket the $100, that extra $100 is income to you.
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Old Jan 23, 2019, 9:18 am
  #442  
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Originally Posted by emma69
There are very many instances where the contracts signed could have benefits to the individual responsible for signing, especially in jurisdictions where ethics are more loosey goosey. Even on the above board side, there could be inducements for an individual, for example (to put it in FT terms) someone signing a contract with a hotel for a company retreat because they were offered personal points / miles despite the fact it would cost the company an extra $20,000 compared to another property. You have to trust that the individual will act in the interests of the company regardless of personal inducements.

As a result of the work we do, the type of relationships we have etc. we don't really have expense policies - no maximum amounts, no per diems, if someone loses a receipt chances are no one will even ask the question. There isn't even a standard expense form to be completed, and most people throw receipts in an envelope and let accounting work it out. Since there is inference that I somehow have an issue with scrutiny, I will point out every single expense I send to accounting is itemized on a spreadsheet, sorted by transaction type and then by date, with a short description where necessary. I keep track of cash expenses without receipts meticulously (such as tips) while away, and submit them in detail as well, even tho no one would bat an eyelid if I said "$200 on tips" instead. All receipts are photocopied, and filed with a copy of the spreadsheet. This is in part selfish (I have had accounting mess up and send back cheques for far less than the expenses) and in part because I want to ensure everything is documented, should anyone have questions down the line (I won't remember what a receipt written in Japanese characters was for 3 months down the road, but if it is on the spreadsheet I know it was a client dinner, where a senior person insisted on ordering champagne, hence the higher than normal amount).

On the food v hotel thing, that is a weird claim. It's like saying that because you chose to fly American Airlines, you shouldn't have dinner before you fly because the onboard mystery meat should be good enough because you chose the airline. I have stayed in hotels where it was literally the only option in the town, doesn't mean their receptionist cum bellboy cum chef can make anything edible. In places with more than one option, it seems you are saying it makes sense to opt for the Ritz Carlton at $800 a night because they have a breakfast I think is decent and a room I think is decent, rather than the perfectly adequate hotel room at a lower end hotel for $300 a night that serves awful food options, and spend $15 on breakfast elsewhere. Hey, I will stay at the RC if that is the choice, no issue, but why would the quality of a hotel room and bed have anything to do with the quality of the food (especially in places where the hotel outsources F&B to a chain that rents space in their property).
People make their own choices.

However, when it comes to business development, client courtesies and the like, the per diem concept does not work. Per diem is for people who are being reimbursed for their own personal sustenance. If you are expected to entertain, than you do so within whatever constraints are imposed by the law and your employer's policies.
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Old Jan 23, 2019, 12:54 pm
  #443  
 
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Originally Posted by Often1
Hopefully not in the recent past. At least in the US/

IRS rules permit employers to establish reasonable flat rate per diems for food and other related expenses, but not so for hotels (or more precisely, overnight accommodations). If you are allowed $90 for meals and spend $10, you may pocket the $80 without tax consequences. However, if you are allowed $200 per night for a hotel and spend $100 and pocket the $100, that extra $100 is income to you.
I was about to say something similar.

I always told our project managers that if the client would go for per diem, do it. It's so much easier. Far fewer receipts, no checking line items, just pay and be done with it. I would setup the rates in our expense system and they could choose partial days on the days they travel and everything was fine. Loved it. I knew some of them would go buy a week of groceries while others ate out for every meal and I didn't care.
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Old Jan 23, 2019, 2:46 pm
  #444  
 
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I almost feel like we need seperate threads for the same topic, but different environments of frequent travelers. Many appear to be consultants and contract type people, of which expenses are possibly handled differently and likely more fixed than lets say someone in a sales role, such as myself, with a commission check every quarter that is based on profit within my territory. Sometimes I'm travelling alone, other times I'm traveling with a large group.

Defining your job changes things as evidenced by not only my responses, but the wide variety of responses. For example, I've expensed very expensive nights in Vegas multiple times, including $1,000 dinners, and at the clients request, $5,000 at Sapphires. It's my job to justify the expenses, some months might be 5K, others might be 30K. But that is sales which is very different than the consultant and govt. contractor work. So yes, I make not only a base, but a hefty commission as well doing what I do, and despite my living large at night with a client, I'm content with a free breakfast at the hotel in the morning, crap coffee and all.
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Old Jan 23, 2019, 2:56 pm
  #445  
 
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Originally Posted by cbn42
Following that logic, if the hotel is good enough for you to stay at, their food should be good enough for you to eat. I don't think it's proper to have a higher standard for food than for accommodation.
that is a patently absurd statement.
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Old Jan 24, 2019, 9:36 am
  #446  
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Originally Posted by erik123
I worked for a place that had a set rate for accomodation and a flat rate per diem based on location. E.g. if the rate was set at $200 for accomodation, you could stay at a holiday inn for $100 and pocket the difference or the Four Seasons for the full $200 (FYI - I stayed at several at an even lower corporate rate). Same for per diem - flat rate and do as you wish and pocket the difference, if any. If accomodation and/or (some) meals where provided that component would be deducted. Very simple, cheap to administer, and based on research cost neutral to the bottom line.
When you say "Pocket the difference" do you mean your OWN pocket? Or rolling the money back into your budget?
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Old Jan 24, 2019, 10:52 am
  #447  
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A per diem for lodging makes no sense. How hard is it to process one receipt for one stay, whether it's one night or multiple nights? It's one piece of paper. The admin overhead can't be anywhere near the cost of a hotel. Meals are a completely different thing, with three a day, and small amounts.
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Old Jan 24, 2019, 11:11 am
  #448  
 
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Originally Posted by COSPILOT
$5,000 at Sapphires.

I had to LOL at this one. $6K on the company AmEx there earlier this year. One of our biggest clients was there so... what can you do.
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Old Jan 24, 2019, 11:53 am
  #449  
 
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I cannot believe (well yes i can but I'm still sickened by it) that companies are entertaining clients at strip clubs. I work in sales for a Fortune 50 company. You'd be very strongly warned (and not reimbursed) and fired for multiple offences for taking anyone to a strip club. It is so damn misogynistic.
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Old Jan 24, 2019, 12:00 pm
  #450  
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Originally Posted by Redhead
I cannot believe (well yes i can but I'm still sickened by it) that companies are entertaining clients at strip clubs. I work in sales for a Fortune 50 company. You'd be very strongly warned (and not reimbursed) and fired for multiple offences for taking anyone to a strip club. It is so damn misogynistic.
So, if you took a female client to a VIP package of Thunder Down Under, thats misogynistic too?
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