buffet tipping, self-service beverage
Mar 3, 2016, 7:54 am
#46
Join Date: Apr 2015
Programs: AA
Posts: 286
By "get screwed", I just mean that they will make less money than they were anticipating. In my state there are no tip credits so they are likely to make a killing anyway, and in every state they are guaranteed at least the state minimum wage.
Right now, the economy is improving, so it's a good time to fight for these changes. A few years ago, when the economy was bad, people had no choice but to take any job they could get, so they were in no position to threaten to leave.
I think option 2 has already been implemented in some states. Servers in California make full minimum wage plus tips. It's not uncommon for competent servers at regular, casual restaurants to make $70K a year or more. Yet, the tipping culture is still exactly the same as in states where servers are paid $2.13 an hour.
Tipping is entrenched in our society. Short of a law explicitly banning the practice, the political system cannot change it.
I never refrain from tipping unless the service was poor, but I adjust the tip based on the location. In states where servers get full minimum wage, 15% is enough, or maybe even a little less if we ordered expensive things (like wine) that don't take much effort. In states where they are paid sub-minimum wage, I would tip higher, and base it on the quality of service.
Right now, the economy is improving, so it's a good time to fight for these changes. A few years ago, when the economy was bad, people had no choice but to take any job they could get, so they were in no position to threaten to leave.
I think option 2 has already been implemented in some states. Servers in California make full minimum wage plus tips. It's not uncommon for competent servers at regular, casual restaurants to make $70K a year or more. Yet, the tipping culture is still exactly the same as in states where servers are paid $2.13 an hour.
Tipping is entrenched in our society. Short of a law explicitly banning the practice, the political system cannot change it.
I never refrain from tipping unless the service was poor, but I adjust the tip based on the location. In states where servers get full minimum wage, 15% is enough, or maybe even a little less if we ordered expensive things (like wine) that don't take much effort. In states where they are paid sub-minimum wage, I would tip higher, and base it on the quality of service.
Points of disagreement:
1. I don't have proof but I doubt that most tipped employees are "making a killing" as I understand the term. I assume that many servers at high end establishments are making more than what their credentials would bring in other lines of work. However, many tipped staff work at low end joints and, in my guesstimation, are not making bank.
2. I assume that you are saying that the tipped workers should "fight" for a different system. Certainly, you are not arguing that non/low tippers are "fighting" for a change by cheaping out. Since you feel thusly, do you think we should offer any support/encouragement other than a low tip or they should infer from low tips that they need to demand higher fixed wages? Are you doing anything to support the "fight"?
3. FWIW, I tip less in CA since I know that they changed their laws to address this. I still do not tip nothing because I think it will take some time for wages and expectations to re-equilibrate to a new reality and the minimum wage is not that high.
Mar 3, 2016, 7:55 am
#47
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 2,378
So you would propose changing our tipping culture by increasing the number of free riders on the system, hoping that eventually the waitstaff talent pool pressures restaurant owners into paying them more directly?
It *could* work. Well, economic theory would probably say it could work. But it sounds like a rather painful way to get there. And in practice it probably *wouldn't* work, as I doubt diners at the best restaurants (which have the best waitstaff who would presumably have the greatest bargaining power) would actually choose to free-ride on the system en masse.
If one guy just free rides for the hell of it, he's just being a d*ck to borrow the upthread term.
It *could* work. Well, economic theory would probably say it could work. But it sounds like a rather painful way to get there. And in practice it probably *wouldn't* work, as I doubt diners at the best restaurants (which have the best waitstaff who would presumably have the greatest bargaining power) would actually choose to free-ride on the system en masse.
If one guy just free rides for the hell of it, he's just being a d*ck to borrow the upthread term.
They wouldn't be "free-riding" any more than you're not "free-riding" if you don't donate to charities... If others are electing to give away their money then that's on them.
Mar 3, 2016, 8:18 am
#48
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Well I wasn't proposing anything as such, but I don't see why that wouldn't work. Though again, you're ignoring the fact that they're forced to do that right now - they just don't have to because customers are doing it for them...
They wouldn't be "free-riding" any more than you're not "free-riding" if you don't donate to charities... If others are electing to give away their money then that's on them.
They wouldn't be "free-riding" any more than you're not "free-riding" if you don't donate to charities... If others are electing to give away their money then that's on them.
If you don't tip at a U.S. restaurant, you're free riding on the system in the most classic/textbook economic definition of the free rider problem.
If you don't tip baristas, bellhops, car wash guys, grocery baggers, etc., I'll accept a different argument...maybe that's some other type of resistance/protest against the spread of tipping culture. You probably didn't receive a discounted product at the expense of others. But in the narrow example of a waiter at a full-service restaurant, it's free riding. Completely.
It is not analogous to charity giving in the slightest.
Mar 3, 2016, 8:21 am
#49
Join Date: Apr 2015
Programs: AA
Posts: 286
OK, I'm consistently *not* a fan of tipping culture, and definitely resist it in places where it's trying to creep *into* the culture, but you're totally losing me here.
If you don't tip at a U.S. restaurant, you're free riding on the system in the most classic/textbook economic definition of the free rider problem.
If you don't tip baristas, bellhops, car wash guys, grocery baggers, etc., I'll accept a different argument...maybe that's some other type of resistance/protest against the spread of tipping culture. You probably didn't receive a discounted product at the expense of others. But in the narrow example of a waiter at a full-service restaurant, it's free riding. Completely.
It is not analogous to charity giving in the slightest.
If you don't tip at a U.S. restaurant, you're free riding on the system in the most classic/textbook economic definition of the free rider problem.
If you don't tip baristas, bellhops, car wash guys, grocery baggers, etc., I'll accept a different argument...maybe that's some other type of resistance/protest against the spread of tipping culture. You probably didn't receive a discounted product at the expense of others. But in the narrow example of a waiter at a full-service restaurant, it's free riding. Completely.
It is not analogous to charity giving in the slightest.
Mar 3, 2016, 8:38 am
#50
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 2,378
OK, I'm consistently *not* a fan of tipping culture, and definitely resist it in places where it's trying to creep *into* the culture, but you're totally losing me here.
If you don't tip at a U.S. restaurant, you're free riding on the system in the most classic/textbook economic definition of the free rider problem.
If you don't tip baristas, bellhops, car wash guys, grocery baggers, etc., I'll accept a different argument...maybe that's some other type of resistance/protest against the spread of tipping culture. You probably didn't receive a discounted product at the expense of others. But in the narrow example of a waiter at a full-service restaurant, it's free riding. Completely.
It is not analogous to charity giving in the slightest.
If you don't tip at a U.S. restaurant, you're free riding on the system in the most classic/textbook economic definition of the free rider problem.
If you don't tip baristas, bellhops, car wash guys, grocery baggers, etc., I'll accept a different argument...maybe that's some other type of resistance/protest against the spread of tipping culture. You probably didn't receive a discounted product at the expense of others. But in the narrow example of a waiter at a full-service restaurant, it's free riding. Completely.
It is not analogous to charity giving in the slightest.
Mar 3, 2016, 8:45 am
#51
Join Date: May 2009
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I hope you guys have got the stamina to keep going as I'm about to board a 7 hour flight without wifi.
Mar 3, 2016, 9:31 am
#52
Join Date: Apr 2015
Programs: AA
Posts: 286
I have been reprimanded by the moderator so I will keep this entirely factual and not personal.
callum9999,
It is a slow morning for me so I reviewed your posts. I think what you are arguing, condensed to a minimum, is
1. Tipping of some food service workers (servers/waiters/bartenders) is not required by law
2. You think that practice is unfair because workers in other lines of work who are paid similarly low wages, are not tipped.
3. Thus, you do not support tipping of waiters/servers/etc.
I agree that tipping is not required by law except in a few restaurants that include "service" as part of the bill or the many restaurants who impose a service fee for parties exceeding a certain size. You are right in that regard.
However, where I guess we have to agree to disagree is that I believe that there is a social contract in the US. If I were having a bad day, I would not approach a Walmart or McDonalds worker and call them a loser for working a minimum wage job. I believe that, provided that I did not threaten that worker, I would not be committing any crime by doing so. However, I would be violating the social contract in the US that demands that all persons be treated with respect, regardless of their race, religion, ethnicity, sexual orientation, etc. or station in life. Likewise, I would not call an unattractive person "ugly" or an overweight person "fatty." We all benefit from this unwritten "law."
This is why I use the term "usual and customary" so much in this thread; these define the unwritten social contract. Tipping servers/waiters is part of the social contract, at least in the part of the country where I live and right now. You may feel that tipping of servers is not part of the social contract; we will have to agree to disagree.
callum9999,
It is a slow morning for me so I reviewed your posts. I think what you are arguing, condensed to a minimum, is
1. Tipping of some food service workers (servers/waiters/bartenders) is not required by law
2. You think that practice is unfair because workers in other lines of work who are paid similarly low wages, are not tipped.
3. Thus, you do not support tipping of waiters/servers/etc.
I agree that tipping is not required by law except in a few restaurants that include "service" as part of the bill or the many restaurants who impose a service fee for parties exceeding a certain size. You are right in that regard.
However, where I guess we have to agree to disagree is that I believe that there is a social contract in the US. If I were having a bad day, I would not approach a Walmart or McDonalds worker and call them a loser for working a minimum wage job. I believe that, provided that I did not threaten that worker, I would not be committing any crime by doing so. However, I would be violating the social contract in the US that demands that all persons be treated with respect, regardless of their race, religion, ethnicity, sexual orientation, etc. or station in life. Likewise, I would not call an unattractive person "ugly" or an overweight person "fatty." We all benefit from this unwritten "law."
This is why I use the term "usual and customary" so much in this thread; these define the unwritten social contract. Tipping servers/waiters is part of the social contract, at least in the part of the country where I live and right now. You may feel that tipping of servers is not part of the social contract; we will have to agree to disagree.
Last edited by Beven12S; Mar 3, 2016 at 10:08 am Reason: Clarification, correction of posters ID, reformatting
Mar 3, 2016, 10:13 am
#53
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 2,378
callum999, I have been reprimanded by the moderator so I will keep this entirely factual and not personal.
It is a slow morning for me so I reviewed your posts. I think what you are arguing, condensed to a minimum, is that tipping of some food service workers is not required by law and you think it inappropriate and unfair because other members of the workforce, who are paid similarly low wages, are not tipped.
I do not argue that tipping is not required by law except in a few restaurants that include "service" as part of the bill or the many restaurants who impose a service fee for parties exceeding a certain size. You are right in that regard.
However, where I guess we have to agree to disagree is that I believe that there is a social contract in the US. If I were having a bad day, I would not approach a Walmart or McDonalds worker and call them a loser for working a minimum wage job. I believe that, provided that I did not threaten that worker, I would not be committing any crime by doing so. However, I would be violating the social contract in the US that demands that all persons be treated with respect, regardless of their race, religion, ethnicity, sexual orientation, etc. or station in life. Likewise, I would not call an unattractive person "ugly" or an overweight person "fatty." We all benefit from this unwritten "law."
This is why I use the term "usual and customary" so much in this thread; these define the unwritten social contract. Tipping servers/waiters is part of the social contract, at least in the part of the country where I live and right now. You may feel that tipping of servers is not part of the social contract; we will have to agree to disagree.
It is a slow morning for me so I reviewed your posts. I think what you are arguing, condensed to a minimum, is that tipping of some food service workers is not required by law and you think it inappropriate and unfair because other members of the workforce, who are paid similarly low wages, are not tipped.
I do not argue that tipping is not required by law except in a few restaurants that include "service" as part of the bill or the many restaurants who impose a service fee for parties exceeding a certain size. You are right in that regard.
However, where I guess we have to agree to disagree is that I believe that there is a social contract in the US. If I were having a bad day, I would not approach a Walmart or McDonalds worker and call them a loser for working a minimum wage job. I believe that, provided that I did not threaten that worker, I would not be committing any crime by doing so. However, I would be violating the social contract in the US that demands that all persons be treated with respect, regardless of their race, religion, ethnicity, sexual orientation, etc. or station in life. Likewise, I would not call an unattractive person "ugly" or an overweight person "fatty." We all benefit from this unwritten "law."
This is why I use the term "usual and customary" so much in this thread; these define the unwritten social contract. Tipping servers/waiters is part of the social contract, at least in the part of the country where I live and right now. You may feel that tipping of servers is not part of the social contract; we will have to agree to disagree.
That is more or less exactly what I've been arguing - which is why it irritates me when you keep bringing up morality. You aren't following morals, you're following a "social contract". As an independent thinker, I follow what I believe to be right, not what others tell me is right - hence why I dislike selective tipping.
If I was to tip people who were low paid then I'd tip everyone who is low paid, not the selective professions which have wormed their way into the contract. A shelf stacker in Walmart has the same right to a decent wage as a waitress in Pizza Hut, despite your social contract saying they don't (or that they're not your responsibility but waiters are, however you want to phrase it).
Mar 3, 2016, 11:18 am
#54
Join Date: Apr 2015
Programs: AA
Posts: 286
Thank you for finally reading them before responding.
That is more or less exactly what I've been arguing - which is why it irritates me when you keep bringing up morality. You aren't following morals, you're following a "social contract". As an independent thinker, I follow what I believe to be right, not what others tell me is right - hence why I dislike selective tipping.
If I was to tip people who were low paid then I'd tip everyone who is low paid, not the selective professions which have wormed their way into the contract. A shelf stacker in Walmart has the same right to a decent wage as a waitress in Pizza Hut, despite your social contract saying they don't (or that they're not your responsibility but waiters are, however you want to phrase it).
That is more or less exactly what I've been arguing - which is why it irritates me when you keep bringing up morality. You aren't following morals, you're following a "social contract". As an independent thinker, I follow what I believe to be right, not what others tell me is right - hence why I dislike selective tipping.
If I was to tip people who were low paid then I'd tip everyone who is low paid, not the selective professions which have wormed their way into the contract. A shelf stacker in Walmart has the same right to a decent wage as a waitress in Pizza Hut, despite your social contract saying they don't (or that they're not your responsibility but waiters are, however you want to phrase it).
1. "Review" is not "read". I had previously read your posts in this thread. If you dispute this, please see the posts around the definition of "donation." IMO, your posts were poorly written, thus I had to review them now. The poor writing is indisputable in that you misused the word "donation." Misunderstood writing is the fault of the writer, not the reader said my AP English teacher. Perhaps you disagree.
2. It seems that you want to rewrite the social contract. Since it is not against the law, I have no problem with that. However, please acknowledge that those of us who abide by the social code are subsidizing your crusade.
3. You're welcome for #2.
Last edited by Beven12S; Mar 3, 2016 at 11:32 am Reason: Better, clearer writing on my part.
Mar 3, 2016, 11:59 am
#55
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 2,378
callum9999
1. "Review" is not "read". I had previously read your posts in this thread. If you dispute this, please see the posts around the definition of "donation." IMO, your posts were poorly written, thus I had to review them now. The poor writing is indisputable in that you misused the word "donation." Misunderstood writing is the fault of the writer, not the reader said my AP English teacher. Perhaps you disagree.
2. It seems that you want to rewrite the social contract. Since it is not against the law, I have no problem with that. However, please acknowledge that those of us who abide by the social code are subsidizing your crusade.
3. You're welcome for #2.
1. "Review" is not "read". I had previously read your posts in this thread. If you dispute this, please see the posts around the definition of "donation." IMO, your posts were poorly written, thus I had to review them now. The poor writing is indisputable in that you misused the word "donation." Misunderstood writing is the fault of the writer, not the reader said my AP English teacher. Perhaps you disagree.
2. It seems that you want to rewrite the social contract. Since it is not against the law, I have no problem with that. However, please acknowledge that those of us who abide by the social code are subsidizing your crusade.
3. You're welcome for #2.
Mar 3, 2016, 12:41 pm
#56
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If the cultural norm somewhere in the world is 100% and I insist on 20% because dammit I'm an American, then I'm freeriding in that system.
Mar 3, 2016, 1:37 pm
#57
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 2,378
Not that I completely agree (with the connotation at least) considering you aren't given the option to pay the correct rate. You're given a rate that's deliberately lower and then forced to make a blind guess as to how much you need to top it up to reach an undefined "culturally norm wage" for a server (not minimum wage as is often falsely claimed), which for some unknown reason is more than jobs of equivalent skill and difficulty.
If the store is refusing to tell you what the correct price is, can you really be blamed for getting it wrong?
Mar 3, 2016, 1:44 pm
#58
Join Date: Apr 2015
Programs: AA
Posts: 286
If pointing out your factual errors and poor writing is odious, I guess I am odious. Do you have any factual refutation of what I wrote? Should I have written "re-read" instead of "review"? If so, should you have used another word than "donation"?
Mar 3, 2016, 1:53 pm
#59
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Moderator Action: Closed for Moderator review