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Originally Posted by pinniped
(Post 26267993)
I don't disagree with much of what you wrote, but the benefit in our system of tipping flows mainly to the employer, not the customer. The demand curves for a particular restaurant's food, or for a particular area's waitstaff talent, already have our tipping culture fully baked in at this point. It's just that a portion of these curves have been shifted off of the employers books and onto us, the diners. (In terms of the labor curve, it's actually a *big* portion of the costs...well over half.)
This is why the NRA (the other one) is the big national lobbyist for separate (lower) tipped-employee minimum wages. It's not waiters or diners organizing to demand this... Of course, this doesn't have anything really to do with the OP, which is basically a fast-food experience. The people stocking the buffet or washing the dishes should be paid at least the non-tipped (higher) minimum wage. |
Originally Posted by Beven12S
(Post 26268016)
However, as I understand the situation, by not tipping, the customer is sticking it to the tipped employee.
This is especially true at a restaurant where this model is firmly entrenched and every party to the transaction is fully aware of their role in it. (This assumes a normal transaction where proficient service was delivered.) |
Originally Posted by Beven12S
(Post 26267906)
Hmmm. As a born and bred USAer, I think you are largely wrong.
I do not think that tips are donations and I don't think they have ever been. To me, the modern premise of a tip for many tipped workers is that the employer is underpaying the employee, knowing that tips will supplement the employee's income. The customer is benefiting by the lower wages because the cost of the goods (e.g. food in a restaurant) is lower than if the employer paid a fair wage. We can argue until we are blue in the face but this is the fact. By stiffing the tipped employee, you are merely exploiting those of us who understand the system and will ensure that the tipped employee gets a living wage. So, for the bad/no tippers, you can thank me any time. IMO the notion that tipping is only for exceptional service went out the window at least 20 years ago. In 2016, a big tip is for exceptional service; that is the only vestige of the old system. I do understand that servers in expensive restaurants make a pretty good wage given the barriers to entry. IMO, so be it. If you go to a M3* in the US, be prepared to tip...that's life (unless the service is included...e.g. Per Se). If you do not want to tip, go eat fast food. I am not defending the system; the system is stupid. I would prefer to live in a tipless society like Japan. However, when you exercise your own proclivities, knowing better, into an entrenched system, you are the dick, not the system. FWIW, I throw down a few bucks at a buffet, knowing that the staff is not very well paid. That's how I roll. I also bet you don't give a second glance to the poor Walmart employee who no doubt earns less than the waiter you tipped at lunch...
Originally Posted by pinniped
(Post 26267134)
Actually, I'd bet the opposite: none of those would be paid the "tipped employee" wage. They'd all get at least the state minimum wage.
I guess I should say...they *should*. Sometimes mentioned casinos and Native American reservations...no idea how that world works. Though I take it that means absolutely no tipping whatsoever is necessary in AK, CA, MN, MT, NV, NY, OR and WA? And minimal tipping in the states that higher minimum wages and/or mandate employers top up the wages to the minimum wage if tips aren't sufficient? |
I tip based on the service I received, not because the server is expecting the tip.
Tips are voluntary in the US and if you provide me with bad / crappy service it will reflect in the tip. Yes, at times I left no / very low tips, other times, well above and beyond. It is the quality of the server and if no or a low tip, then the server should reflect on how to perform their jobs better. |
Originally Posted by callum9999
(Post 26268204)
If you feel the minimum wage provides a reasonable quality of life then that's up to you - I don't.
Though I take it that means absolutely no tipping whatsoever is necessary in AK, CA, MN, MT, NV, NY, OR and WA? And minimal tipping in the states that higher minimum wages and/or mandate employers top up the wages to the minimum wage if tips aren't sufficient? |
Originally Posted by Beven12S
(Post 26267906)
I am not defending the system; the system is stupid. I would prefer to live in a tipless society like Japan. However, when you exercise your own proclivities, knowing better, into an entrenched system, you are the dick, not the system.
If enough people stop tipping, employees will demand higher wages, or go to work somewhere else where they can get higher wages. They will also start to report their tips accurately, rather than imputing, because it will be to their benefit to do so. In the mean time, a few of them may get screwed because they get less income than they were expecting. However, remember that in every state, they are entitled to minimum wage from their employer if tips are not sufficient. This is incredibly rare, because people tend to tip well in the US. There is no reason to feel guilty about not tipping if that is what you choose to do. This is particularly true if you live in one of the states that does not allow tip credits. |
If I was in a poor country or where people were not paid much I'd leave a tip. What's $5 or $10 if it improves the life of someone working hard to try and get ahead.
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Originally Posted by callum9999
(Post 26268204)
How on Earth is you voluntarily (yes, tipping is voluntary) handing over money to someone because you feel they don't earn enough anything but a donation?
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Originally Posted by cbn42
(Post 26270027)
Sometimes, it's necessary to be a "dick" in order to take a stand on something. The only way to effect change is to stand up for what you think is right. The entrenched tipping system will only change is if enough people stop participating.
If enough people stop tipping, employees will demand higher wages, or go to work somewhere else where they can get higher wages. They will also start to report their tips accurately, rather than imputing, because it will be to their benefit to do so. In the mean time, a few of them may get screwed because they get less income than they were expecting. However, remember that in every state, they are entitled to minimum wage from their employer if tips are not sufficient. This is incredibly rare, because people tend to tip well in the US. There is no reason to feel guilty about not tipping if that is what you choose to do. This is particularly true if you live in one of the states that does not allow tip credits. I see two obvious mechanisms for effecting change here. 1. Refuse to tip 2. Work the political system to do something about the underpayment of certain service workers 1. Is cheap and easy. It is also highly unlikely to do anything besides saving the non-tipper money. 2. Is difficult, frustrating, and might actually cost you some time or money. However, if successful, it will actually accomplish something. Option 1 is dickish; Option 2 is a reasonable way that has successfully effected change many times. Do you use the money that you should have spent on the tip to contribute to solution 2? Or do you just pocket the money? |
Originally Posted by Beven12S
(Post 26270962)
If you would actually investigate the definition of "donation" you would see that there is an element of charity in the meaning which is not the case here.
So I take it ignoring low paid Wal-mart employees is also "how you roll" given you dodged the question? |
Originally Posted by callum9999
(Post 26271301)
Oh no, there's absolutely nothing charitable whatsoever about voluntarily handing over money to someone because you don't think their wages are high enough is there...
So I take it ignoring low paid Wal-mart employees is also "how you roll" given you dodged the question? 2. Per Merrian-Webster.com,charity is 1: benevolent goodwill toward or love of humanity 2a : generosity and helpfulness especially toward the needy or suffering; also : aid given to those in need b : an institution engaged in relief of the poor c : public provision for the relief of the needy 3a : a gift for public benevolent purposes b : an institution (as a hospital) founded by such a gift 4: lenient judgment of others 3. Per Merrian-Webster.com, gratuity and tip (used in this context) are synonomous and gratuity means : something given voluntarily or beyond obligation usually for some service; especially : tip You are just wrong on your assertion that a tip/gratuity is a donation. This is only true in your imagination. RE tipping of Walmart employees. In the US, it is not customary or expected to tip a retail employee such as a Walmart employee. Also, I believe that, unlike tipped restaurant employees, Walmart employees are entitled to minimum wage. As has been explained in FT ad nauseum, some/most restaurant employees in tipped positions are paid less than minimum wage with the expectation that tips will augment their income. If tipping of retail employees became usual and customary in the area I was living, I would tip them. |
Question for the US-based non-tippers. Are you a regular at any restaurants (where tipping would be expected, not McDs) where you exercise your non-tipping practice?
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Originally Posted by Beven12S
(Post 26271425)
1. Per Merrian-Webster.com, the definition of donation is a : the making of a gift especially to a charity or public institution b : a free contribution :
2. Per Merrian-Webster.com,charity is 1: benevolent goodwill toward or love of humanity 2a : generosity and helpfulness especially toward the needy or suffering; also : aid given to those in need b : an institution engaged in relief of the poor c : public provision for the relief of the needy 3a : a gift for public benevolent purposes b : an institution (as a hospital) founded by such a gift 4: lenient judgment of others 3. Per Merrian-Webster.com, gratuity and tip (used in this context) are synonomous and gratuity means : something given voluntarily or beyond obligation usually for some service; especially : tip You are just wrong on your assertion that a tip/gratuity is a donation. This is only true in your imagination. RE tipping of Walmart employees. In the US, it is not customary or expected to tip a retail employee such as a Walmart employee. Also, I believe that, unlike tipped restaurant employees, Walmart employees are entitled to minimum wage. As has been explained in FT ad nauseum, some/most restaurant employees in tipped positions are paid less than minimum wage with the expectation that tips will augment their income. If tipping of retail employees became usual and customary in the area I was living, I would tip them. And that is exactly the point I was making - thanks for illustrating it so well. You do it because it's "usual and customary", not because because you've worked out that it's the moral thing to do based on an estimate of their wage. If you bothered to read my posts, you'd see I'm fully aware of the tipped-minimum wage. You'd also know that it doesn't apply to roughly a quarter of the population, and most (all?) of the rest are entitled to have their wages topped up should the tips not bring their wage to the normal minimum wage. If those employees choose not to exercise their rights then it's not really my fault. Though incidentally I do tip, for what seems to be the same reason as you - peer pressure. Not that I visit such establishments very often - having been a Walmart employee for most of my working life and not getting handouts from the customers, my budget doesn't tend to allow such visits. |
Most people in the service industry do not expect a tip.
Even in the food service very few expect it. The server has very little to do with the preparation of the meal, stands there with their hand out.... Well I took your order, and like the person with the sign on the street corner, I would like an extra buck..... Tip the kitchen staff, they did the work, |
Originally Posted by Annalisa12
(Post 26270664)
If I was in a poor country or where people were not paid much I'd leave a tip. What's $5 or $10 if it improves the life of someone working hard to try and get ahead.
My concern there is unintended consequences on their internal labor markets as well as unintended consequences to the relationships the local population has with Westerners. My intent isn't to influence their labor markets to the point where the most talented people seek tourism/service industry jobs for access to outsize tips...I don't think that benefits the country or its other industries. I also wouldn't want to contribute to a perception that visitors shower money on beggars or "informal" laborers (e.g., guy in the street trying to shine your shoes while you stand at a streetcorner, etc.). I realize there's a nuance here that distinguishes it from, say, restaurant tipping, but the general topics are somewhat related. I guess that's a long-winded way of saying that if I'm in an extremely poor country, the last thing I want to do leave a $10 tip that makes a waiter suddenly more well-paid than a nurse or teacher. That's ultimately harmful to their economy. |
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