Flaps not set for takeoff?
 

Good evening all....

Just a quick question thats been unsettling me this week - as a fairy nervous (but regular) flyer I do enjoy the routine of a departure process I can follow to keep me calm - one thing that struck me this week on a departure on an icy morning was a different process for managing the flaps.

I always notice the flaps move into position after push back before we start moving forward - on this occasion the flight was de-iced and after pushback NO FLAP MOVEMENT - which caused me a slight panic and started running through all the crashes over the years in my mind caused by incorrect flap deployment.

Anyway - using up all my energy not to run down the aisle shouting FLAPS I finally calmed down as we turned onto the take off runway and the flaps moved into position as we were powering up - I guess there are many fail safes in place in these instances but wondering if this could have been pilot error not following the checklist or standard procedure after de-icing to prevent further build up of ice?

Any insights as always much appreciated ...

C

Depending on aircraft type there are various fail safe devices that provide visual and audible warnings.

I am no expert but, maybe it was in connection with the de-ice process.

Thought that might be the case - it was an A320. Just never experienced it on hundreds of flights and hence the routine changed freaked me ;)

C

I think the Airbus family of aircraft have a number of devices to remind the pilots about take off config.

I am sure you were thinking about the MD-80 out of Madrid where an electrical circuit had been disabled and that turned off the flap config warning.

It didnt end well that day so, as you are a regular traveller who expects certain things to happen in a certain order I can understand your concern.

There may be reasons not to extend the flaps after pushback and before taxi. I would generally think that flaps are done prior to taxi, but they don't have to be. In any case, there was a point when they are done, and even if they are missed the flaps are checked at the before takeoff checklist. The checklist is there not as a prompt to do something, but as a check an action or setting has been done. Flaps aren't in the before taxi checklist so I don't think this was a case of them being missed during that checklist.

Thanks for the info. Interesting that its not in the checklist but every flight I've taken with BA flaps are extended before taxi...

C

Yes the dramatic end to that flight certainly came to mind whilst my face was pressed against the window longing for the flaps to move ;)

Just to declare, I am not a pilot but I do have probably 100 hrs in 737-800 fixed base simulators and I am pretty familiar with checklists and also the flows for each stage. I don't have any time on a320 series but I have checked a320 checklists as well to see what they state.

Having said all that, extending flaps is something which is usually done after pushback and engine start, and it is in my flows at that stage. However, there is no requirement for it to be done at that stage, and as you say they may not have been done due to the expected de-icing. The flaps check is in the before takeoff checklist though.

Anyway, based on what you have written I wouldn't be too worried. Things don't always happen at the same stage or in the same sequence for many reasons.

Anyway, based on what you have written I wouldn't be too worried. Things don't always happen at the same stage or in the same sequence for many reasons.[/QUOTE]

Changing routine always sets my heart racing ... much like when they forget to do 'bing bing' after take off - is that in the checklist???? ;):D

Flaps not set for takeoff?
 

Are you thinking of the bong immediately after takeoff why denotes the gear up?

In any case, after takeoff checklist does not list any chimes or bongs.

The flaps aren't usually set until after de-icing.

Theres also an electronic checklist on the display of the A320 series which will note anything in red that hasn't been set - such as auto brakes, spoilers armed (in case of an RTO). If the engines are powered up past a certain point and any of these points have been missed, it will trigger the master warning alarm.

Also, if you happen to land at an airport and the outside air temperature is over 100 degrees, the flaps won't be retracted fully after landing.

Yes - the familiar 'bong' thats always encouraging after take off. Another panic moment when I don't hear it.

Great thanks for info - in this case de-icing was completed at the gate and still no flaps after pushback. Because it was out of routine I suppose I'm wondering if in this instance they were set at the last minute due to the system prompting the flight crew or if it was in some way related to the icy conditions.

Yeah, thats the gear up chime. It happens again just before landing when the gear goes back down again.

The reason why you may not hear it is if theres been a long taxi on a warm day and the flight crew have left the gear down for a little longer than usual to cool the brakes off. The only affect this will have on the flight is that it will give you a few less MPG!

Thanks, procedures under de-icing was what I didn't know.

No electronic checklist in a 737! There is takeoff config warning horn though.

In BA, irrelevant of type, we set the flaps in the BEFORE TAXY checklist, unless we have been de-iced and then it is normally done just prior to takeoff. The ensures that surfaces that have not been anti-iced (eg flap surfaces covered up as they are retracted) have the minimum exposure to any precipitation experienced between pushback and takeoff. As you can imagine this period of time depends on the airfield and can be very short or extend for several hours like at JFK.

The Airbus and Boeing aircraft both have take-off configuration warning systems, that should prevent a takeoff without flaps set.

Flaps not set for takeoff?
 

Interesting. So flaps is in the before taxi checklist for ba. Is there another flaps check in the before take off checklist as well?

This thread also raises a wider point of IF you notice something out of the ordinary and have enough confidence that it could be something wrong, how do you notify the cabin crew?

Pressing the call bell while the a/c is lined up would (I imagine) not be enough.

I realise this is highly unlikely to happen because of the excellent safety standards of BA, but I do wonder...

At least three!

That exact thought was running through my mind - 'should I say something' - which clearly given the fact it appears to be normal procedure would have been a huge faux pax on my part !!

In a more serious situation - e.g engine fire etc ... Or piece of the wing falling off I guess I would say something but the crew will no doubt be aware anyway if it was anything remotely dangerous !

If you don't have the confidence to tell the crew something is wrong then I suggest you read the in-flight safety card damn well.

As far as telling the crew, it would all depend on how serious it was. I'd need a scenario to answer. But if you didn't want the aircraft to take off, you could probably just say you have E****.

Now if you see this when lining up, be sure as hell to make a fuss! Stand up, block the aisle, be noticed so the crew tell the flight deck the cabin is no longer secured!

bloody dangerous stuff!

As waterhorse has explained, in de-icing conditions flaps are left retracted until we get to the holding point. When landing on contaminated runways they are also left down when it is believed they are covered in snow and ice from the landing. This prevents damage to components on flap retraction. In this case engineers or the crew inspect them after ship it down and if coated, we get the contaminant removed before retracting them. If they are clean we bring them straight back up.

WOW, Aeroflot safe airline da?

Many years ago I did this on a Spanair flight that was holding short of a relatively short runway. They set the flaps incorrectly for t/o and didn't appear to notice, so I hammered the call bell and (being in an aisle seat) stood up and walked back towards the galley.
Luckily the cabin crew listened to me, although the flight crew didn't pay attention. In the end I was offloaded and the flight went without me, also without flaps, and with a very long t/o roll. No action was taken against the filght crew (it was reported by the cabin crew) despite their screw-up. One of them was killed at Madrid a couple of years later.

I refuse to fly on any airline under Spanish oversight now, seems paranoid but I just don't trust them.

If they allow the aircraft to take off like that, who's to say the crew would inform the flight deck that someone is standing up shouting like crazy? I mean they have schedules to stick to! :)

Now I know why some people refer to the alliance as ScaryTeam. As most of my time with ST has been on KLM they were always fine for me.

I've been on two different aircraft (A319, 737-800) during de-ice and the procedure seems completely normal. Admittedly, and I'm an 'experienced' flyer, I was nervous the first time I saw it!

The A319 was de-iced, then didn't deploy any flap until we were just turning onto the runway.

On the 737-800, we were de-iced, then flaps were deployed all the way to full landing configuration, before being fully retracted seconds later. As with the Airbus, they were then set for takeoff maybe 20 seconds before takeoff roll commenced.

I'd hazard a guess based on the above examples that give or take a few variables based on differences in aircraft type, the principles of the procedure remain the same.

If I can, I always look out of the window to check the flaps are set before take-off, just as I check that there really is a life jacket under my seat. Probably completely unnecessary, but it's automatic to me to check.

I would have no hesitation in alerting the cabin crew if the flaps hadn't been set by the time the aircraft was approaching the runway threshold, despite the config warning that should sound in the event power is applied without the flaps having been set.

IAG is registered in Spain! :)

While boarding a TWA L-1011 at DAY many years ago I asked a FA if the captain knew that there was a little stream of Jet A coming from the left engine nacelle and then proceeded to my seat. I did note that she went into the cockpit and emerged with the captain who went outside and looked. After maintenance took care of whatever the problem was we departed about an hour late.

There's at least one other thread about passengers mentioning issues: http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/conti...on-flight.html

Luckily I never have to fly with the Iberia half of the operation ;)

I'm exactly the same. And a couple of winters ago I did mention it to the stewardess as the flaps hadn't been set after push back and we were almost at the the hold point for runway 09R at Heathrow (and we hadn't been de-iced either), but there was wet snow around.

She checked with the fight deck and came back to me to say it was to minimise contamination from aircraft in front. And not to worry. No sooner as she had they were set. I felt a bit of an idiot but I'd rather be safe than sorry.

I really hope their standards are higher than Spanair, even if they weren't before IAG was formed I'd hope IAG would realise the damage to their reputation a fatal crash caused by reasons within their control would be.

Out of curiosity, how do you know that the flaps were not set correctly? Some aircraft (A300-600, 767-200, Fokker 100) can take off with no flaps extended (and in the case of the F100, no slats, as it doesn't have any).

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the St Kitts wrong intersection incident. It must be ghastly to be a passenger, know that something's wrong and be powerless to stop it.

The only aviation operation by IAG is if they make paper planes out of their office memos. IAG is a holding company, it does nothing much itself.

The aviating in IAG is done by subsidiaries BA (under UK CAA supervision) and Iberia and Vueling (under Spanish supervision).

Well this has turned into a brilliant thread- nice one OP!

A long time ago I was in the Far East for the first time, flying back from SIN on a 747. As we began the take-off roll the acceleration caused what seemed like several litres of water to be dislodged and pour down from between roof panels onto passengers sitting further forward. I was at an exit row with CC on a seat facing me so I spoke up to ask if this was normal? He glanced round and nonchalantly shrugged his shoulder: 'condensation, sir...'. I didn't mind looking clueless and would do the same again if I was concerned!

Kudos to the folks up-thread who have made the crew aware of concerns. IIRC when the Los Rodeos incident occurred everyone in the cockpit except the captain knew they didn't have clearance to take-off but rather than risk upsetting the social order they were content to continue...

Ah, ok. I "fly" with the Thomson 737-800 checklist and flaps don't appear until the before takeoff checklist. Flaps are in my after pushback & engine start flows as a PM though. I did actually try and do a search for the ba 737-400 checklist out of curiosity but nothing came up on google.

How did we end up in Travelbuzz? Was the OP talking about an airline that's not BA?

It's amazing how pilots can forget something as essential as configuring the aircraft for departure. Yet every so often it happens and chances are you will die in a fireball. Flaps and slats increase the surface area of the wing and enable the aircraft to takeoff at lower airspeeds. Without these devices you would need very long runways and very durable tires to achieve the airspeed needed for a safe takeoff.

There are warning devices to help ensure the aircraft is configured properly but unfortunately as we saw in the accident of Northwest flight 255 sometimes pilots disable the system.

With more modern aircraft systems, the ability to disable a Take-off Config Warning is reduced to being only possible through engineering action. The Spanair accident has led manufacturers to beef up operating procedures in Minimum Equipment Lists to mitigate this threat.

As for knowing whether or not the correct flaps are set from the passenger cabin is not an exact science. On some fleets in certain airlines a standard take-off flap us used, and performance tables based on that configuration. If the standard flap is not enough additional tables are produced for a greater flap setting. As airlines now face more pressure to squeeze every last revenue dollar out of an airframe, manufacturers have produced performance software that is airline and airframe specific. This enables a 737 for example to depart flap 1 instead of the previously mandated flap 5. Thus enables the aircraft to lift more weight when obstacles in the climb out would create a weight penalty. As airlines more more towards 'pay by power' contacts with engine owners, the use of 'improved climb' now aka 'optimum' will mean (in general terms) lower flap settings, lower thrust and higher take-off role speeds.
In the summer time around the Middle East, the big 3 will often be rotating their 777s at close to the tire limiting speed. This enables them to carry more revenue weight off the deck on those LH and ULR legs they fly. The more energy the aircraft lifts off with the higher the second stage climb gradient of the 'net take-off flight path' will be. This is a mandated performance requirement, and airlines will optimise their aircraft performance on the majority of take off runs in order to lift all the revenue weight they can.
There are exceptions to using this technique. Contaminated runways, low vis, winds shear reported etc along with certain allowable defects that require full thrust and a minimum ground run.
So whilst there are certain things the passengers should rightly be concerned about, flap settings are not always a clear cut science of routine as they previously were.