BearX220

Perhaps because they take more than one flight. This is why anecdotal stories from friends about fabulous or appalling trips should be taken with a grain of salt when you're choosing yours.

BuildingMyBento

Instead of having a separate section for toddlers, how about a separate one for the "DYKWIAs?" It's a species found throughout the cabin, and is not limited to passengers.

pinniped

Flying without status, I'd choose an airline outside the major alliances. Those airlines don't tend to punish the non-elite traveler quite so much, whereas many of the "majors" use your lack of a status as a tool to make your experience as miserable as possible.

I flew Aer Lingus TATL as a non-elite last year and felt like the entire experience was fairly egalitarian. I felt like their airport staff and FA's treated me respectfully even though I had never flown them before. It was quite shocking, actually. They were downright pleasant to me.

That said, I might not go out of my way to fly EI if I had a nonstop NYC-LON option. I'd probably book Virgin, although there may be some other good options.

lloydah

There's a UA flight out of IAD - LHR about 9 30am I think. As far as Virgin is concerned, yep Premium Eco is good but I'd give eco a miss. BA is a lot better IMO.

invisible

Seem there will be no TPAC flight for you then...

SIN-NRT-SJC is coming for me next week on ANA, where seats do not recline in coach. Will see how I can handle it.

Because I am finally done with UA after last time they brought something called 'food' (see this post) on EWR-HKG flight.

Artpen100

Thanks, lloydah. I had not come across that before, and in looking it up, it occurred to me why, and also why there are so few morning flights to Europe. I am rarely traveling to London as my final destination, instead usually flying (direct if I can) to other European business centers. That morning flight arrives around 19:30 GMT. It is pretty hard to make connections on at that point, and in many cases a connecting flight might not be until the next morning. Whereas the overnight flight will arrive just in LHR as the day is beginning with lots of opportunities to make connections throughout Europe. In other words, the daytime transatlantic flight is only practical for both you and the airline if you are flying direct to your final destination. That had not occurred to me before.

pinniped

I'm surprised it's not *more* popular on NYC-LON, since there's such a huge market of people who are flying exactly that route.

Does the daytime flight create aircraft utilization challenges? What does, say, AA do with an aircraft that lands at LHR in the evening?

USA_flyer

I would think that depends on how late you mean by late, how fast the plane can be turned around and it's next destination.

Jasper2009

Indeed it stays at LHR overnight and operates one of the flights the following morning and as you assumed it´s not ideal in terms of aircraft utilization.

Overall I think there´s not a huge demand for day-time flights from the East Coast to Europe:

- it almost exclusively relies on O/D traffic - usually not a good thing
- the night curfew at European airports is a major issue, and even a slight delay can cause serious issues (afaik that´s the reason there´s no daytime flight to FRA/MUC)
- it´s more expensive to operate
- it´s not ideal if you need to use ground transportation either when departing or upon arrival
- you end up "wasting" a full day travelling and many companies will discourage that on a business trip when there are other alternatives

E.g. the YYZ-LHR day-time flight operated by AC is often referred to as the "executive shuttle" - it´s a very popular flight in J on certain days (and I´m sure they´re making some good money on those days), but overall demand isn´t that huge. I´d assume it´s the same with JFK-LHR.

ajGoes

This probably dates me, but the last time I flew AF I was offered a Cognac back in steerage. I accepted.

Artpen100

This pretty much all makes sense:
"- it almost exclusively relies on O/D traffic - usually not a good thing
- the night curfew at European airports is a major issue, and even a slight delay can cause serious issues (afaik that´s the reason there´s no daytime flight to FRA/MUC)
- it´s more expensive to operate
- it´s not ideal if you need to use ground transportation either when departing or upon arrival
- you end up "wasting" a full day travelling and many companies will discourage that on a business trip when there are other alternatives"

Though I am curious how it will impact my jetlag, and intend to look into it next time I have to go IAD-LHR. If I can be persuaded to fly UA.

Cloudship

I understand that reasoning. But I am not sure I agree that there isn't that much demand and some of those challenges are really that big. I think the ground transportation still works - most European cities have active transportation well into the morning hours, more so than the US. On this side, I think the challenge is less ground transportation as connecting flights. There is no way to have a flight connect through a morning flight without having to have an overnight stay on this side as well.

As much as you can say your are "wasting" a full day, a red eye flight leaves everyone tired, and has a big negative effect on productivity. I am in fact surprised more companies dont force the extra night stay (given that it is probably only a hundred or so, less than the fluctuation in fares) to make sure their staff is more productive and effective. And there is some down time for the plane, but a two aircraft rotation will not spend an entire day there - the flight that arrives in the morning is the late afternoon flight out, gets in in the evening and then flies back the following morning, does the overnight in Europe and then becomes the early morning flight back again.

Personally the lack of daytime flights over to Europe is one of the factors that keeps me from flying, especially when I am going to be in coach or premium economy. No way I am going to get any sleep on that flight, and that will just spoil the following day for me.

I wonder if the 787 and 350 will make these routes more likely. Or if the 321 is extended to make some near Europe destinations possible.

Jasper2009

Absolutely, the inability to connect to/from those day-time flights is the biggest issue - which is why I wrote "it almost exclusively relies on O/D traffic".

There´s a decent amount of O/D traffic on East Coast - LHR routes, but not a huge amount of O/D traffic on other European routes.

E.g. while FRA has plenty of flights from everywhere in the world, only a small fraction of pax actually stays in/around FRA. Even if you did, getting anywhere within a 100 miles radius of FRA (except for Frankfurt itself, of course) is rather painful or even impossible after 10p.m./11p.m. despite FRA having both a long-distance and regional train station.

And while the red-eyes may not be fun, it´s perfectly possible to sleep 4-5h in J which is sufficient for most people to be functioning upon arrival. In Y, it´s obviously a different story, but no airline will operate the more costly day-time flights because of Y demand.

I agree it would be nice to have more options, but I don´t see more day-time TATL flights in the near future.

JMN57

Uh, yes. In J or F.

JMN57

Or one is willing to overnight at LHR and then connect onward.

Personally, I would rather a good dinner in London, a good night sleep in a real bed and then a flight the next day than a redeye that offer no decent sleep in Y and, at best, a short nap in J/F.

When AA offered the daytime JFK-LHR flight, it was great as one could book a cheap Y ticket and use a SWU to move to J. If, for some reason, the upgrade didn't come through, it's not that long a flight in Y and if it did, one could actually enjoy J awake rather than try to sleep on a ski-slope.

As AA is no longer flying that AM flight (via JFK), one is stuck with the BA flight and can't use the SWU. Counterbalancing that, J on the 773 is a better product than J on the 763 so, if you can get it, that's OK. The problem is if there isn't upgrade inventory, one is playing the lottery with the losing hand an overnight TATL in Y.