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-   -   What happens after a runway incursion during takeoff? (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/travelbuzz/1366318-what-happens-after-runway-incursion-during-takeoff.html)

fishferbrains Jul 13, 2012 9:25 pm

What happens after a runway incursion during takeoff?
 
I'm (still) aboard AA 887 from DFW to YVR. We had (my first) runway incursion during take-off. Apparently a UA flight crossed after we crossed the 80 knot threshold (felt much faster) and we slammed on the brakes.

We were redirected to a C gate for almost 2 hours with brake temps still very high after 90 minutes. The captain indicated we had external air conditioners trying to reduce the temps for most of that time.

A few of us are curious as to what happens afterwards:
- Is there an official investigation or report?
- Are costs/charges assigned if an aircraft (or controller) is at fault?

Is anyone familiar with the process?

Back_Seat_Pilot Jul 13, 2012 9:55 pm

What happens after runway incursion during takeoff?
 
Yes there is absolutely a investigation into who or what was at fault and some kind of penalty to the person at fault.

JDiver Jul 13, 2012 10:26 pm

Some of us are familiar with the process. This will require a thorough investigation, and appropriate action will be taken with both physical and human factors being examined. If there is one (or more) individuals at fault, corrective action will be taken, ranging from retraining to termination. Nobody, but nobody, wants one of these things in their "jacket" pointing at their failure(s).

But most importantly, preventing a similar occurrence is a crucial goal of the findings - that can even mean significant changes in procedures or physical changes to the airport taxi- and runway design, signage, etc.

fishferbrains Jul 14, 2012 7:49 am


Originally Posted by JDiver (Post 18926950)

But most importantly, preventing a similar occurrence is a crucial goal of the findings - that can even mean significant changes in procedures or physical changes to the airport taxi- and runway design, signage, etc.

And ultimately this is what all flyers want to have happen. The passengers gave the AA crew a nice round of applause on the aircraft before our second take-off. It was nice to see!^

brp Jul 14, 2012 8:11 am


Originally Posted by fishferbrains (Post 18928288)
And ultimately this is what all flyers want to have happen. The passengers gave the AA crew a nice round of applause on the aircraft before our second take-off. It was nice to see!^

How long did it finally take after the break cool down and any initially debrief that might have happened?

(Or was the two hours the total and you posted after (final) takeoff?)

Cheers.

PHL Jul 14, 2012 9:50 am

Runway incursions have been a very hot button issue that the FAA has been very keen on eliminating. 100% of the time they are due to human factors:

1.) Pilot(s) didn't follow ground or tower controller instructions
2.) Ground or tower controller gave wrong instructions to pilot(s)

The FAA will fully investigate this, starting with listening to all relevant tapes. Then, depending on who erred, pilot and/or controller certifications will likely be suspended pending further training/review. If the responsible parties have had previous incursions, permanent revocation is possible. That's a career ending mistake, even if people don't die.

ijgordon Jul 14, 2012 9:58 am

Obviously, in this case, it was UA's fault. ;)

I'm curious how long the brakes take to cool down after a normal landing. Obviously there's time built into the schedule for the turnaround. If Southwest does 30-minute turnarounds, plus maybe 10-20 minutes of taxiing at each end that implies at most about 60 minutes but possibly much less. Just curious how much harder the brakes work in an emergency situation compared to business-as-usual.

PHL Jul 14, 2012 10:52 am


Originally Posted by ijgordon (Post 18928846)
Just curious how much harder the brakes work in an emergency situation compared to business-as-usual.

In a normal landing, the engines reverse thrust after touchdown, which helps preserve brake life. In an emergency, the brakes are fully applied while the engines are cut to idle. I don't know if there is even time to reverse the thrust (or if they did in this case).

ksweeney Jul 14, 2012 12:18 pm


Originally Posted by fishferbrains (Post 18926765)
We were redirected to a C gate for almost 2 hours with brake temps still very high after 90 minutes. The captain indicated we had external air conditioners trying to reduce the temps for most of that time

The brake temperature issue is not uncommon, but more likely at higher altitudes on hot days. I've waited at the gate for over an hour on several occasions at DEN on both AA and UA on hot days when the inbound encountered a heavy braking requirement. The hot temperature coupled with the mile high elevation apparently reduce the amount of drag that flaps and slats can provide in slowing the aircraft under braking.

WChou Jul 14, 2012 12:51 pm


Originally Posted by PHL (Post 18929080)
In a normal landing, the engines reverse thrust after touchdown, which helps preserve brake life. In an emergency, the brakes are fully applied while the engines are cut to idle. I don't know if there is even time to reverse the thrust (or if they did in this case).

In addition, the plane is much heavier during a rejected take off. Loaded down with all that JET-A, the brakes need to absorb a lot of energy to stop the plane in a hurry.


Originally Posted by ijgordon (Post 18928846)
Obviously, in this case, it was UA's fault. ;)

More specifically, SHARES is at fault!!!!

ksweeney Jul 14, 2012 1:31 pm


Originally Posted by ijgordon (Post 18928846)
Obviously, in this case, it was UA's fault. ;)

Not necessarily. It will be UA's fault if ground told UA to hold short of the runway. It's also possible that the ground controller told UA to proceed to another intersection at the same time that the local controller cleared the AA flight for the immediate. The ground and local may have both given correct instructions and either UA or AA did not clearly understand and acted incorrectly. There is no doubt that communications between both aircraft and controllers will pinpoint exactly where the fault lies.

fishferbrains Jul 14, 2012 4:40 pm


Originally Posted by brp (Post 18928371)
How long did it finally take after the break cool down and any initially debrief that might have happened?

(Or was the two hours the total and you posted after (final) takeoff?)

Cheers.

The total delay was about 2 hours give or take a few minutes. It took about 4 minutes for the captain to briefly explain what happened and that "they were on the phone with maintenance to determine next steps". It was clear on taxi that the brakes were affected with a severe "chattering" effect when the plane slowed in a few spots back to the gate.

After we arrived at the gate a full inspection occurred when we were informed that "the recommended wait time for brake cooling is about 60 minutes" after a high-speed abort. It was another 15 minute before we got an update that brakes "were still too hot" and that supplemental air conditioning was being applied to the brakes. It was somewhere after the 90 minute mark we were eventually cleared.

We never were allowed to disembark and my original post timing was because of available in-flight internet service.

seawolf Jul 14, 2012 7:56 pm


Originally Posted by ksweeney (Post 18929757)

Originally Posted by ijgordon (Post 18928846)
Obviously, in this case, it was UA's fault. ;)

Not necessarily. It will be UA's fault if ground told UA to hold short of the runway. It's also possible that the ground controller told UA to proceed to another intersection at the same time that the local controller cleared the AA flight for the immediate. The ground and local may have both given correct instructions and either UA or AA did not clearly understand and acted incorrectly. There is no doubt that communications between both aircraft and controllers will pinpoint exactly where the fault lies.

Exactly. OP's pilots could also have been at fault.

tylerdurden4543 Jul 14, 2012 8:11 pm


Originally Posted by seawolf (Post 18931109)
Exactly. OP's pilots could also have been at fault.

I think the reply was in jest as this is an AA-focused board - hence the wink face...

cynicAAl Jul 14, 2012 10:59 pm


Originally Posted by ijgordon (Post 18928846)
Obviously, in this case, it was UA's fault. ;)

I suspect the UA pilot was simply trying to find out where all their 1Ks went...


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