wcprestonFB

I'm going to leave the airline names out of this post because I don't want the ire of the fanbois of any particular airline to muddy up the discussion.

There were two groups of passengers, both about 20 ppl -- both flying on Airline1 from US airport to other US airport to connect to flight on Airline2 to very far away country (VFAC). One arrives for their Airline2 flight to VFAC no problem, but Airline1 delays second group of two groups of passengers due to late flight crew. Still, group 2 arrives in time to be running for the flight.

Group1 notifies Airline2 that the pax are on the ground and running. Airline2 closes the door and prepares for departure. Group 2 arrives at gate w/plane still at the gate and door closed (10 mins after departure time). Airline2 refuses to open the door. This causes a delay to group 2 of at least 48 hours and counting.

Note to readers: If you recognize this story because you read it on a FB link on Airline1's page this morning, please know that I have corrected the blog post and deleted the original FB entries that blamed Airline1. Please don't mention who Airline1 is here. That's not the point of this post.

Here's what some have said:
1. You simply can't delay an international flight by any amount of time.
2. Maybe Airline2 gave away their seats to standby passengers
3. You can't open the door on an international flight once it's closed due to you needing to send the manifest to DHS.

I disagree w/#1 above, as I've seen many international flights delayed for similar reasons -- and delayed for much longer amounts of time, too.

I disagree w/#2 for two reasons. First, many international flights don't allow standby. Second, there were no additional flights that day to standby FROM.

I don't know the details of #3, but I do know that they knew the pax were on their way before the door closed.

FWIW, I'm a 3M mile flyer on AA. (Which is not either of the airlines mentioned in this story.) So I do have some experience in these matters.

Wise and experienced FTers: Am i wrong to be angry and Airline2?

cordelli

Welcome to Flyertalk

In the past it pretty much comes down to this.

For every person who posts the flight should have been held, there's somebody else saying it's not the fault of airline 2, and they want to leave on time, not delay their passengers, have a window to take off they need, may need the gate, etc.

So yes you have a right to be mad, but they also may have valid reasons they could not delay the flight for the late arrivals.

If they closed the door early that would be a different story, it's not clear in your post what the time frames were. But in the most basic of terms, they have a cut off time you need to be at the gate by. If you don't make it, then they could offload you, give the seat away, etc.

wcprestonFB

Thanks. I updated my post accordingly.

I do believe that Airline2 was well within their rights to do what they did. They did nothing wrong as far as airline regs are concerned. The second group of pax arrived 10 mins after departure time.

I still don't believe what they did was right.

nrr

Many intl. flights get turned around and go back to their embarkation point. Also, it is possible (probable(?)), that pax have to make (tight) connections when they arrive.
At some airports (with a heavy schedule of intl. flts.) planes instead of queuing on the taxiways, are kept at the gate and have a prioritized take-off assignment, which if missed could significantly delay them.
Generally W-E bound (like flights from the US to Europe) have favorable tailwinds, which even with an hour delay could still get them to their destinations early--so if this were the case, holding the plane 10 minutes (or so) to accommodate the delayed pax, would not have been a calamity.

emcampbe

This. I don't know the situation, or if this flight was going to a partner hub, etc. But what if there were 3 passengers on the flight who missed their connection as a result. Could be more.

Airline 2 didn't do anything wrong.

Often1

There are too many variables which none of us know to determine whether carrier #2 made the right decision.

1. The decision to delay departure is not made by the GA, but rather by Operations in conjunction with the cockpit crew and a host of other inputs. The ultimate question becomes, "if we delay this departure by X minutes, how will it likely impact downstream events?" Sometimes, it can be done and sometimes, a short delay can have significant ramifications downstream which delay oodles of pax for a 24-36 hour cycle.

2. The above is even more the case once the flight is closed. I don't just mean that the cabin door is closed. It can take 15-20 mins. to go back through the paperwork, have the cockpit crew recalculate weight & balance and have everything double-checked by the flight's dispatcher.

3. On TPAC/TATL flights, ATC is not so simple and flights are slotted so that they don't get too close. If an aircraft misses its slot, that can mean a lengthy hold somewhere out in the middle of nowhere and perhaps a need for a refueling diversion if the flight is long enough.

4. Alternatively, with good tailwinds and perhaps good ground time at the out-station and no tight connections, there may be plenty of time and the flight gets held.

5. It's completely wrong to say that there were no SB's. The flight could have been oversold and your space given to one of the pax without a seat. There could have been pax who misconnected or were otherwise distressed from an earlier flight. And, as soon as the deadline for being at the gate passed, your seat was given to one of those people.

6. Lastly, there may be delays, depending on your destination for paperwork to be transmitted.

We're all naturally self-centered and want the world to revolve around us. I certainly do. But, as operating businesses, air carriers have to do the best for the most.

I have no idea whether a 10-minute wait would have caused 50 missed connections or a delay on the return or whatever. So, whether #2's decision was a good one is impossible to determine from where we all sit. But, as you can imagine, aircraft aren't buses and it's not as though the driver reopens the door, you scurry on, the door closes and the bus goes on its way.

nrr

I was on a non-stop from jfk-las, when I boarded at T-30, the plane was 1/2 full (=1/2 empty). Take-off was delayed for close to 90 minutes: the missing pax were all coming from lhr, and that flight was significantly delayed. [There was a big boxing event in las, and one of the boxers was from the UK.] In this instance over 100 people were delayed and jfk-las is domestic.

emma69

Firstly, they didn't arrive in time to be running for the flight, they arrived late, and presumably had no chance of arriving before the flight closed.

As I don't know the destination / airline it is hard to say with any accuracy, but

a. In terms of delaying a flight, it could have serious knock on effects - if weather etc. made the flight already look like it would be delayed en route, a further delay could put it over the curfew hours of that airport (and I understand airlines are fined for landing outside the official 'open' hours). The crew could be be short on time before they go 'illegal'. At the point the doors were closed, it wouldn't be a case of 'just 10 minutes' after departure time - their bags would have to get from the first aircraft to the second, all the equipment brough back to load the bags. The safety demo would already have been played, and they would have to restart it, and show it all the way through before they could take off, etc. If the 20 pax had carry on bags, and there wasn't storage for them (bins already full, rollar bags that don't fit under seats) they would also have to work this out and get them stored.

b. Plenty of airlines oversell international flights. So it neededn't be a case of people flying 'standby' - it could be that 110 passengers were booked on the 100 passenger flight because the airline thought 10 would be no shows. At T-10 mins for some airlines (and T-20 minutes for other airlines, there is no universal standard) those passengers are assigned seats. Could also be people who had missed connections themselves, or were on that flight as part of another re-route (e.g they missed their flight to Manchester, but were put on this flight to London, with a connection then on to Manchester).

c. An airline has no clue whether Group 2 were accurate saying Group 1 were 'on the ground and running'. For all the gate knew, they could be 20 people meandering slowly, stopping to buy duty free etc. Someone could have called from the plane saying 'we've landed, we're on our way', but the plane could actually be at the gate waiting for ground crew to open the doors etc.

pittpanther

Here we are in 2012, with all the communications technology we have available to us, yet Flight A acts like they have no way of knowing where Flight B and its connecting passengers is.

They know, they just don't care. It would be too much work for them to actually wait for some customers. Let someone else deal with the stranded passengers - it's not my job. I won't get punished for leaving on time and stranding 20 people. I WILL get punished for delaying the flight to wait for these 20 people.

Southwest always seems to make an effort for connecting passengers, when it's the last flight of the day.

fromYYZ_flyer

Do Airline A and B codeshare or are they part of the same alliance? If so, there would have been more chance of having a connection work out as they can see much easier what the status of the connecting passengers flight is. I would never plan a connection between two non-alliance airlines unless I had a large buffer to allow for delays, clearing customs, checking in again, etc. Even if they made the flight, the baggage definitely would not have. Please clarify if it was an interlined ticket (one reservation with both flights) or two separate reservations for both flights.

Often1

I have no doubt that if B knows that pax are connecting from A, it proactively tracks them. That doesn't mean that B holds flights for late-arriving pax and it also doesn't mean that B is going to hold off boarding oversold pax who are going to be eligible for IDB (or pay VDB to avoid IDB), if it can avoid that expense by filling the seats of late-arriving pax who are not entitled to IDB and don't fit VDB.

OskiBear

A couple of years ago, I was on a LH flight from FRA to ORD connecting to LAX. We were about ready to leave when we were subsequently held on the ground for 45 minutes due a group of late arriving passengers on a connecting flight.

My estimation was about 50 people from the late flight.

Of course, we arrived ORD more than 45 min late, and I missed my connection as did my seatmate who was making an intl connection to south america and that caused him quite a hiccup in travel plans.

I guess the airline in its wisdom felt there was less disruption in waiting for the passengers rather than our downstream delay issues.

The fact is, many people are connecting - if the airline holds a plane for one group of people, it may significantly impact another group of people.

I don't think there's any one right answer in these situations

Yaatri

When connecting on two different airlines, it is often a problem., even when the two airlines belong to the same alliance. There is no obligation for airline #2 to delay its flight on verbal assurance of one or more passengers. It's not just late arriving passengers who have to board, their luggage has to be transfered, which means un-securing the cargo hold. If there is some sensitive or classified material on-board, there is yet another procedure to be followed. It's not like boarding your local bus or entering a cab.

slawecki

us airport to us airport is an international flight??one checks in for int'l, but one is not yet quarantined. i think the described flight is still a common old domestic flight.

i recall the following for int'l flights:
1 at ZHR they would not close the door because they were awaiting late passengers.
2 on the ground, door closed.at the gate on a virgin flight. would not open the door and let us out. sat for 6 hrs to be deiced.
3.arrived lhr, but it was fogged in. landed instead at cdg. they let us off the plane for 2-3 hrs. reloaded us and continued.
4. mxp was fogged in, so we went to the other milan airport. as we were getting off the plane, the fog lifted. the plane was taken to mxp. we were not allowed to reboard. we got a bus.

CaptainMiles

Weird possible solution: could the passengers from group 1 do more than just tell the flight attendants that group 2 was on the ground and running? Could they simply stand up, thus preventing the aircraft from pushing back? And continued refusal to sit down would inevitably result in door opening.

At that point, once the door is open, the airline is either going to offload group 1 for failure to comply with crew instructions, or load group 2. In either case, they would have to redo manifest, weight and balance, and all the paperwork. Offloading group 1 would be a much bigger delay because they would have to locate and offload their bags, and maybe have to deal with law enforcement -- lots of paperwork, long delay. The easiest solution for the airline at that point, if they wanted to minimize delay, would be just to board group 2 and move on.

What do you think the airline would do?