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Old Timer's Airline Quiz and Discussion

Old Timer's Airline Quiz and Discussion

Old Feb 3, 19, 5:12 pm
  #14566  
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Originally Posted by jlemon View Post
I do know that Seat 2A is diligently working on preparing a new set of questions but I believe he may need a few more days to get ready to submit them. So this just might an opportune time for someone else to ask a question or two. And, of course, air carrier discussions are the spice of life here on the OTAQ&D.
Right on, JL! And again, thank you for the time and effort you've spent not only researching and formulating those questions but also addressing the multitude of responses. You Da Man!!!

Your most recent set of questions is a tough act to follow, but yes, I am working diligently on a new set. As always, I'm accompanied by a bottle of good bourbon and a quality recording of the String Cheese Incident's excellent Halloween show at the Spirit of the Suwannee Music Park in Live Oak, FL - a show I attended back in the day (2013). Hopefully my next batch of questions will be ready to go sometime next week.


Where OTAQ&D questions are created

In the meantime - allow me to reiterate what JL has mentioned above. Please, if any of you would like to step up with your own batch of questions; or tales, recollections or questions such as toshbaf's above, please do. I am perfectly happy to take a seat on the side for awhile longer to enjoy your input.

And now, it's time to break for the big game. Have a great Super Bowl, everyone! (or whatever it is you're doing today...)

Last edited by Seat 2A; Feb 3, 19 at 11:46 pm
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Old Feb 3, 19, 5:32 pm
  #14567  
 
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Originally Posted by Seat 2A View Post
Does anyone know anything about a possible Lufthansa flight in the late 1980's, say 1987, that flew possibly Lima - Bogota - San Juan - Frankfurt on a 747-200 or 747-200 Combi? Was that the routing? Was the Combi ever used on a regular basis?

I've got a schedule from 1986 that shows the following:

Lufthansa LH 515 Lima (LIM) 945a-1130a Bogota (BOG) 1230p-405p San Juan (SJU) 515p-700a Frankfurt (FRA)
Equipment: 74M
Frequency: Thursday only
Thank you. Some may speculate why this route no longer operates.

Maybe it is inefficiencies of multiple stops? The LIM-BOG flight probably wasn't very full because they need to save space for SJU passengers (or fill it so there is little space for SJU passengers. If that happened all the time, then a SJU flight wasn't needed unless for refueling due to BOG's high altitude). Maybe the Peru or Columbia market collapsed? Maybe it grew enough for non-stops? Maybe traffic grew enough for smaller planes to fly non-stop?

It appears that Lufthansa no longer flies to LIM or UIQ. It flies non-stop FRA-BOG. Only Condor flies SJU-FRA now.
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Old Feb 3, 19, 6:47 pm
  #14568  
 
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Originally Posted by WHBM View Post
An interesting pastime. I wonder if the other collectors of liquor miniatures find it comparably surprising that there are collectors of airline timetables which are no longer valid.

I suppose an upside of the liquor bottles is that if your interest wanes, you can always drink your collection. Which us lot can't do ...
I think everyone on this forum is a collector of some type. Although I haven't met a mini bottle collector who was also a frequent flyer, it was flying that started my collection back in the early 60's and it grew to over 23,000 bottles a few years ago before I started selling it off. It's no surprise that one of my subspecialties was bottles with an airline label on them (a few examples below, including one from McGregor Airlines, about which I have never found any information; the tax stamp is one used before 1945 -- do any of you recognize the name?).

At one time I had 100 different airlines represented (I have flown 98 different ones, but the two lists are not congruent). And my other favorite collection was OAGs, which I sold off a few years back; my odds-on favorite was a 1938 International OAG; I'm sure jlemon's collection has many more unique timetables and Seat 2A's massive airline postcard collection is another example of our collecting mania. BTW, WHBM, a true mini collector only goes for sealed bottles -- once I gave my wife an extra Brazilian Caiparinha to sample, but otherwise none were opened.

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Old Feb 3, 19, 6:55 pm
  #14569  
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Originally Posted by Toshbaf View Post
Thank you. Some may speculate why this route no longer operates.

Maybe it is inefficiencies of multiple stops? The LIM-BOG flight probably wasn't very full because they need to save space for SJU passengers (or fill it so there is little space for SJU passengers. If that happened all the time, then a SJU flight wasn't needed unless for refueling due to BOG's high altitude). Maybe the Peru or Columbia market collapsed? Maybe it grew enough for non-stops? Maybe traffic grew enough for smaller planes to fly non-stop?
.
I somehow think it is German emigrants who drove the VFR market strongly enough in the past to warrant service. The ones I know have a very strong attachment to their homeland, retaining language and citizenship through 2,3 or even more locally-born generations (more strongly in some countries than others - Argentina being a particular example where there are dozens of schools certified by the German education ministry and people send their children to Germany for tertiary education). The younger ones are less attached so unless there is a strong trade connection, these routes wither. Since airlines alliances make it easy to get around - BOG is Avianca's hub, and before Varig's demise, GRU was probably a more important (than it is today w/o a local partner hub) LH destination - no need to continue service to marginal destinations. That said, I am surprised SCL is no longer a LH destination as it is commercially important.

I have a friend whose grandfather was a young German merchant sailor and whose ship was interned in Callao (Peru) during WW-I. He jumped ship, started up a new life and never went home even though (or because) all his male siblings were killed in the war - certainly remembered his family as his children were named after them. It became up to his adult grandchildren to get in touch with family in Germany.

As for 5th freedoms, one North American airline (leave the name unmentioned lest it becomes a quiz item) used to have a flight to LIM- SCL-EZE, coming back the same way, in the '80s. Not much of a VFR market - though there were a lot of exiles from one of the stops so it had to be trade (mining?)
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Old Feb 3, 19, 7:00 pm
  #14570  
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WHBM
... I suppose an upside of the liquor bottles is that if your interest wanes, you can always drink your collection. Which us lot can't do ...
KLM Delft houses come to mind ... esp since they're still worth keeping on a shelf when empty

You have a point -- "houses" like the ones from KLM (the photo on the left shows a handful of the 200 KLM houses and palaces I had), and similar ceramics from many other distillers (right hand photo) still look good when empty, but I never opened them either. Not sure they would taste quite right after decades on the shelf!

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Old Feb 4, 19, 8:24 am
  #14571  
 
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Originally Posted by Toshbaf View Post
Thank you. Some may speculate why this route no longer operates.
Markets change. Long-line low frequency routes like this, with multiple stops for a 747 just a couple of times a week, have pretty much disappeared. You either manage to do nonstop daily flights out from your hub, and straight back, or not at all. Lufthansa now do Bogota daily from Frankfurt on an A340-600, but not the other points. San Juan has always had very little attraction or commerce for Europe, just serving as a convenient refuelling place. Avianca has emerged as a major Transatlantic force, they do even Munich nonstop daily from Bogota, likewise to Barcelona, and no less than three daily nonstop flights to Madrid, which is now the principal hub for Latin America. Iberia also do this run daily with an A340-600 and pick up all the BA/OneWorld traffic from London, in a similar style to many other South American points. Even secondary Spanish carrier Air Europa have a daily nonstop B787 Madrid to Bogota. So the demand is still there and then some, but redistributed.
Quite a lot of the more exotic flower trade in Europe comes from equatorial South America ... NBO must be another KL destination that supports combis for this freight biz
Sad tale about this from a colleague in the office. He is a follower of large wildlife, and a keen photographer, and has long taken holidays in Africa with his photographs appearing in the relevant magazines for such enthusiasts. He says when he first went to Kenya a major focus was around Lake Naivasha, there's a game reserve but much was open country from where the game came down to the lake each evening to drink. As the flower growers have developed on an industrial scale, within his time of going there, substantial areas of lakeside have been fenced off and had glasshouses erected, and their favourite photo spots eliminated, more each year. Some pathways were left fot the animals, but as they are concentrated here they are progressively picked off by predators. The water extraction is progressively lowering the lake level.

Like most of the European flower industry (even in the UK) they are generally owned by the Dutch, and are cut daily, trucked to Nairobi, and shipped out by KLM and Kenya Airways to Amsterdam, in particular, and also by all-cargo carriers. There has always been a major airfreight market, both in the hold and all-cargo, from Europe to East Africa, especially to inland places like Nairobi, shipping and then rail/truck is very slow, gets much damage and is plagued by theft in transit. So everything of value is airfreighted. The return sectors used to run empty until the capacity was offered at marginal cost to northbound shippers, used to be none but the flower industry steadily developed. The Kenyan government encourages the investment, and there are numerous lower-paid jobs created, but the ownership and margin is in the Netherlands. The World Bank, who make loans for the flower growers, completely ignore this.

I believe the Dutch have plenty of water. They should be required to airfreight it in to Kenya for their own businesses...

https://www.google.com/maps/@-0.8329.../data=!3m1!1e3

http://siteresources.worldbank.org/K...ha_Cluster.pdf

Lake Naivasha used to be a landing for the Imperial Airways flying boats to Africa in the 1930s-40s, but they had just a landing area, netted to prevent hippos getting into conflict with the aircraft, and a small hotel.
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Last edited by WHBM; Feb 4, 19 at 8:30 am
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Old Feb 4, 19, 9:49 am
  #14572  
 
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Thanks WHBM for the notes on the Kenya flower industry. It seemed like a good idea when I first heard about it but you can have too much of a good thing, especially if it requires water and good soil. I was there about 12 years ago, the previous year I visited Kampala and flew back on a KL combi to Amsterdam.
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Old Feb 4, 19, 12:55 pm
  #14573  
 
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Originally Posted by Toshbaf View Post

It appears that Lufthansa no longer flies to LIM or UIQ. It flies non-stop FRA-BOG. Only Condor flies SJU-FRA now.
Lufthansa was still operating 747 Combi service into Bogota as late as the fall of 1993. At this time, their service into Quito (and I believe you meant UIO and not UIQ) as well as Lima, La Paz and Guayaquil was being operated in conjunction with local air carriers with passengers transferring to or from an LH aircraft at Bogota. Here are the eastbound scheds....

LH 537: La Paz (LPB) 13:50 - 14:40 Lima (LIM) 15:20 - 18:20 Bogota (BOG) 19:45 - 22:30 Caracas (CCS) 23:50 - 14:05 (+1) Frankfurt (FRA)
Freq: Thursdays only
Equip: LH 537 EQUIPMENT 727-BOG-74M
Note: LH 537 OPERATED BY LB LPB-BOG

LH 537: Guayaquil (GYE) 15:20 - 15:50 Quito (UIO) 16:50 - 18:15 Bogota (BOG) 19:45 - 22:30 Caracas (CCS) 23:50 - 14:05 (+1) Frankfurt (FRA)
Freq: Thursdays and Saturdays only
Equip: LH 537 EQUIPMENT 727-BOG-74M
Note: LH 537 OPERATED BY EQ GYE-BOG

The 727 service LPB-LIM-BOG and GYE-UIO-BOG was respectively operated by Lloyd Aereo Boliviano (LB) and TAME (EQ).

In addition to the 747 Combi flights, LH was operating standard passenger 747 service from Bogota to Frankfurt via Caracas once a week every Monday. The aforementioned 727 services operated by LB and EQ fed this flight as well on Mondays.

BTW, Lufthansa was continuing to operate significant 747 Combi service from Frankfurt in the fall of 1993. Cities receiving LH 74M service to and from FRA included Bangkok, Beijing, Bombay (now Mumbai), Cape Town, Chicago, Dallas/Fort Worth, Delhi, Harare, Ho Chi Minh City, Hong Kong, Houston, Jakarta, Johannesburg, Karachi, Kuala Lumpur, Los Angeles, Manila, Mexico City, Rio de Janeiro, San Francisco, Santiago, Sao Paulo, Seoul, Singapore, Taipei, Tel Aviv, Tokyo, Toronto and Windhoek. The vast majority of these flights were not operated daily and not all were operated on a nonstop basis as well.

Last edited by jlemon; Feb 4, 19 at 3:07 pm Reason: correction & additional info
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Old Feb 4, 19, 2:36 pm
  #14574  
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Originally Posted by Originally Posted by WHBM
An interesting pastime. I wonder if the other collectors of liquor miniatures find it comparably surprising that there are collectors of airline timetables which are no longer valid.
With 7 point something billion people on the planet, there's something for everyone to collect. Returning home from an airline collectibles show a few years ago, I was sat next to a man from Amsterdam who claimed to have the world's 2nd largest collection of air sickness bags. Of course I asked how many he had. About 1,300. He showed me some that he'd acquired earlier that day at the show. His prize acquisition was one from PIA Pakistan. The bags were all adorned with the airline logo back then. These days many of them are either blank or platforms for advertisers, which I should imagine would diminish their value considerably.

Another item which a surprising number of people are quite passionate about are airline safety cards. I see them displayed often at shows and they are big sellers. I should've nicked one from my recent flights on Uzbekistan Airways and Air Mauritius. Who knows how much I could have enriched my bank account?

As for my airline postcard collection, it was once appraised as the 9th largest in the world. Once you reach the upper strata of such eclectic activities, you can't help becoming aware of others with similar interests. Back in the 1990s I noticed one day that I had over 40 different postcards of Lufthansa's 747 and - for the most part - they all looked the same, especially since Lufthansa's livery had at that time changed little over the years. At that point I had an epiphany of sorts. It was time to thin the collection down. I decided I would keep no more than 2 postcards of any aircraft type specific to livery, and in most cases only one. Exceptions were made for particularly attractive airliners such as an East African Airways Super VC10. Particularly shocking to hard core collectors would have been my decision to keep only cards which provided the most attractive view of the airliner, regardless of whether they were coveted airline issue cards or commercially produced cards. While such a move would be unthinkable amongst the hardcore collectors, especially considering the value of airline issued cards, it had become apparent some years earlier that I would never be able to sell a collection the size of mine for anywhere near its true value. Above all, the main reason I started collecting postcards in the first place was to enjoy a nice photo of the airliner, and I don't need 40 - or even 6 of the same airliner regardless of publishing origin.

Anyway, I ended up thinning out a few thousand cards and, back in 2004, I made over $3000.00 selling some of them on eBay. Bidding was hot and heavy from all over the world. I was mailing off stacks of small manila envelopes each week to addresses everywhere from Germany, Singapore, Brazil, Portugal to all over the U.S. The highest winning bid for one of my cards was $68.00 for an airline issue Cathay Pacific Lockheed Electra. Most of the older airline issues sold for anywhere from $5-15.00 each.

HERE is a listing of upcoming airline collectible shows. We're talking a room the size of a hotel ballroom filled with airline memorabilia and if you're nearby and have nothing better to do, you might find visiting one a lot of fun.
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Last edited by Seat 2A; Feb 4, 19 at 5:27 pm
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Old Feb 6, 19, 7:43 pm
  #14575  
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A little something to tide you over...

1
. Why is February 25, 1990 a milestone date in the annals of U.S. airline history?

2. What was the first European airline to operate the Lockheed L-1011?

3. What was the name of British Caledonian’s Gatwick Lounge for its Premium Class passengers?

4. South African Airways commenced service between Johannesburg and New York in 1969. What was the routing of that flight?

5. Jim is a consular attaché working in Romania in the 1960s. He needs to write down a phone number that he’d rather others not discover, so he does so in aviation related code. Use these hints to discover the U.S. area code plus standard seven digit phone number: (Area Code=Britannia 737-200) + Northwest 707-320 + Lufthansa + South African
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Old Feb 6, 19, 11:20 pm
  #14576  
 
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Originally Posted by Seat 2A View Post
A little something to tide you over...

1
. Why is February 25, 1990 a milestone date in the annals of U.S. airline history?
That is the day that all flights operated by US Airlines had smoking banned on them. Prior to that, people were allowed to smoke on international flights or flights that lasted over a certain number of hours.
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Old Feb 6, 19, 11:25 pm
  #14577  
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Originally Posted by Seat 2A View Post
A little something to tide you over...
2. What was the first European airline to operate the Lockheed L-1011?
Guessing the obvious because of who the sole engine provider was: British Airways (or BOAC which probably ordered it). I can think of only one other European flag carrier that operated the L-1011, and some smaller airlines (e.g., LTU).
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Old Feb 7, 19, 12:04 am
  #14578  
 
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European airline to operate the Lockheed L-1011 Tristar. I concur that it is probably British Airways. The above post mentions LTU flying the L-1011. Without looking, I believe TAP Air Portugal also flew it. Air Atlanta Icelandic flew it. Air France and Aer Lingus flew it, albeit in very limited form, maybe a wet lease of one plane.
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Old Feb 7, 19, 12:09 am
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Originally Posted by Seat 2A View Post

4. South African Airways commenced service between Johannesburg and New York in 1969. What was the routing of that flight?
JNB Jan Smuts - Sal, Cape Verde Islands - JFK

Tell me I'm wrong.
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Old Feb 7, 19, 12:37 am
  #14580  
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Originally Posted by Toshbaf View Post
JNB Jan Smuts - Sal, Cape Verde Islands - JFK
That wold have been my guess. IIRC ZA had to use Cape Verde to LHR too as it wasn't allowed to overfly most of Africa.
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