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Old Timer's Airline Quiz and Discussion

Old Timer's Airline Quiz and Discussion

Old Jul 9, 12, 9:26 am
  #1321  
 
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Originally Posted by jlemon View Post
You're getting closer!

This interchange service was flown by Continental and United (perhaps a harbinger of things to come?) with DEN as the interchange point.

However, you are missing two (2) intermediate stops according to the UA timetable (BTW, the CO timetable back then did not list all of the UA cities where stops were made).

And this flight was not operated with a Vickers Viscount.
OK -- in 1966 it was a DC-6B, TUL-ICT-DEN-SLC-BOI-PDT-PDX-SEA.

But, since you didn't specify the year, I plead year-impairment. My 1960 OAG shows TUL-ICT-DEN-BOI-PDX-SEA on a Viscount. I beg for partial credit.
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Old Jul 9, 12, 9:54 am
  #1322  
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2. This airline operated one stop jet service from Stockton (SCK) to Sacramento (SMF) which is a distance of just over 50 miles or so via Interstate 5. Name the airline, the intermediate stop and the type of aircraft flown.

PSA would be an obvious choice but since United also operated a lot of intra-state milkruns around California, I'm going to go with a United 737-200 routing via SFO.


6. Back in 1969, this airline flew a daily roundtrip service with a routing of Cleveland (CLE) - Pittsburgh (PIT) - Knoxville (TYS) - Birmingham (BHM). Name the airline and the type of equipment operated.

Hmm... well I'm pretty sure United still operated Caravelles in 1969, so let's go with that.

Last edited by Seat 2A; Jul 9, 12 at 10:14 am
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Old Jul 9, 12, 1:22 pm
  #1323  
 
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Originally Posted by miniliq View Post
OK -- in 1966 it was a DC-6B, TUL-ICT-DEN-SLC-BOI-PDT-PDX-SEA.

But, since you didn't specify the year, I plead year-impairment. My 1960 OAG shows TUL-ICT-DEN-BOI-PDX-SEA on a Viscount. I beg for partial credit.
7. Well, I did mention the year 1969 in my initial question but then quickly changed it to 1966 when I realized my error!

Anyway, you are correct!

Note that this flight stopped in Pendleton, OR (PDT) which was not a very large place at the time and still is not very big, population-wise. This means that CO DC-6B aircraft operated by UA crews conceivably visited PDT on a regular basis back then. However, this interchange service did not last too much longer as CO was subsequently granted routes by the CAB between DEN and SEA/PDX. UA eventually operated jet equipment into PDT including B727 service before mainline flights were discontinued.

BTW, according to the UA timetable, the interchange flight going the other way did not stop in PDT but instead had a routing of SEA-PDX-BOI-SLC-DEN-ICT-TUL operated as well with a DC-6B.
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Old Jul 9, 12, 1:40 pm
  #1324  
 
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Originally Posted by Seat 2A View Post
2. This airline operated one stop jet service from Stockton (SCK) to Sacramento (SMF) which is a distance of just over 50 miles or so via Interstate 5. Name the airline, the intermediate stop and the type of aircraft flown.

PSA would be an obvious choice but since United also operated a lot of intra-state milkruns around California, I'm going to go with a United 737-200 routing via SFO.


6. Back in 1969, this airline flew a daily roundtrip service with a routing of Cleveland (CLE) - Pittsburgh (PIT) - Knoxville (TYS) - Birmingham (BHM). Name the airline and the type of equipment operated.

Hmm... well I'm pretty sure United still operated Caravelles in 1969, so let's go with that.
A solid double play by Seat 2A!

2. Yep, it was the airline of the Friendly Skies that flew this route with a B737-200. Actual routing of this UA flight was LAX-FAT-SCK-SFO-SMF.

6. The iconic Caravelle operated by United is correct as well. There were a number of UA flights between north and south in the eastern U.S. operated with Caravelles at this time.
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Old Jul 9, 12, 2:33 pm
  #1325  
 
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Originally Posted by jlemon View Post
6. The iconic Caravelle operated by United is correct as well. There were a number of UA flights between north and south in the eastern U.S. operated with Caravelles at this time.
The United fleet of 20 Caravelles cost Sud Aviation, the manufacturer (in the same factory in Toulouse which now turns out Airbuses) a fortune in marketing and modification costs, which they never really got back. There were high hopes for other US airlines, and a really close miss with an order for TWA for whom they built a special prototype. The Caravelle had Rolls-Royce Avon turbojets (like the Comet 4), and in no little part to try and get more US orders Sud changed over towards the end of the production to use P&W JT8Ds, which was fruitless as no US carrier ever ordered them and the development costs were large. Sud also had a long dalliance with General Electric, with a variant of the engine which went into the Convair 990, again all wasted R&D.

The standard Caravelle had no supplementary oxygen system, being restricted in altitude to about 31,000 feet, having procedures for rapid descent in the event of depressurisation, and hand-held oxy units for the cabin crew to distribute to the most needy. The FAA refused to accept this, and Sud had to come up with a proper overhead drop-down oxy system for the United aircraft. Likewise the basic European Caravelle III and VI-N had a braking parachute, which got dropped on the taxy in and, if you weren't careful, blew about the airfield and prevented further runway operations until it was captured. United were told in no uncertain terms this was unacceptable, and Rolls-Royce had to come up with thrust reversers, thus United got the first VI-R model (R for Reversers).

Like so many European aircraft of the times bought by US airlines, their service lif was relatively limited, and many of the fleet were sold to Sterling Airlines, the major holiday charter flight operator in Scandinavia, who operated them not only on the standard routes down to the Mediterranean, but on decidedly long-haul charters from Copenhagen to Thailand and the Caribbean, stopping once or twice for fuel along the way.

Standard Caravelle seating was 5-abreast, but United fitted them with 4-abreast and sold them as all first class, like many prop aircraft of the time. United used 727s from the earliest opportunity on New York to Chicago, but used the all-first class Caravelle on the "Men Only" 5pm departure from New York and Chicago. Now THAT is a topic that gets some people fired up ! So a final question. What other route did United do the "Men Only" on ?
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Old Jul 9, 12, 3:15 pm
  #1326  
 
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The other route for "men only" was LAX/SFO. This route did not last long, as a woman lawyer filed a complant with the CAB when she was unable to make a reservation on the flight as it was "men only".
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Old Jul 9, 12, 8:11 pm
  #1327  
 
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I'll go ahead and close out the remaining question......

10. What airline operated weekly nonstop B747 service between Santo Domingo, DR (SDQ) and Caracas (CCS)?

This particular service was operated back in November of 1993.....and the airline was a bit of a surprise to me: Alitalia.

Here are the actual routings:

AZ 564 - FCO-SDQ-CCS-BOG

AZ 565 - BOG-CCS-SDQ-FCO

There was also a seasonal variation of this route where Bogota was not served and Caracas was the turnaround point instead.

Who would of thought Alitalia......
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Old Jul 9, 12, 8:49 pm
  #1328  
 
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Originally Posted by WHBM View Post
The United fleet of 20 Caravelles cost Sud Aviation, the manufacturer (in the same factory in Toulouse which now turns out Airbuses) a fortune in marketing and modification costs, which they never really got back. There were high hopes for other US airlines, and a really close miss with an order for TWA for whom they built a special prototype. The Caravelle had Rolls-Royce Avon turbojets (like the Comet 4), and in no little part to try and get more US orders Sud changed over towards the end of the production to use P&W JT8Ds, which was fruitless as no US carrier ever ordered them and the development costs were large. Sud also had a long dalliance with General Electric, with a variant of the engine which went into the Convair 990, again all wasted R&D.

The standard Caravelle had no supplementary oxygen system, being restricted in altitude to about 31,000 feet, having procedures for rapid descent in the event of depressurisation, and hand-held oxy units for the cabin crew to distribute to the most needy. The FAA refused to accept this, and Sud had to come up with a proper overhead drop-down oxy system for the United aircraft. Likewise the basic European Caravelle III and VI-N had a braking parachute, which got dropped on the taxy in and, if you weren't careful, blew about the airfield and prevented further runway operations until it was captured. United were told in no uncertain terms this was unacceptable, and Rolls-Royce had to come up with thrust reversers, thus United got the first VI-R model (R for Reversers).

Like so many European aircraft of the times bought by US airlines, their service lif was relatively limited, and many of the fleet were sold to Sterling Airlines, the major holiday charter flight operator in Scandinavia, who operated them not only on the standard routes down to the Mediterranean, but on decidedly long-haul charters from Copenhagen to Thailand and the Caribbean, stopping once or twice for fuel along the way.

Standard Caravelle seating was 5-abreast, but United fitted them with 4-abreast and sold them as all first class, like many prop aircraft of the time. United used 727s from the earliest opportunity on New York to Chicago, but used the all-first class Caravelle on the "Men Only" 5pm departure from New York and Chicago. Now THAT is a topic that gets some people fired up ! So a final question. What other route did United do the "Men Only" on ?
Excellent commentary, as usual, by WHBM concerning the Caravelle.....

Here are some examples of routes operated by United with the Caravelle from the mid and late 1960's.....

MEM-HSV-TYS-PIT-CLE

OMA-ORD-YIP*-PHL (*-YIP is Willow Run Airport serving Detroit)

ORF-PHF-IAD

DSM-ORD-DAY-CMH-BAL-EWR

TOL-EWR

CLE-PIT-TYS-CHA-MEM

MKE-CLE-BAL

And then there was this interesting flight from the April 24, 1966 United timetable:

UA 212: depart ORD 5:00pm, arrive EWR at 7:56pm.

There were a number of notations in the timetable column concerning this particular Caravelle service from ORD to EWR. Dinner and cocktails were served (of course) in the all F cabin with the notes "The New York EXECUTIVE" plus "Extra Fare" and "Men Only".....

"Welcome on board United, sir! May I light your cigar before I refill your Scotch glass?"
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Old Jul 9, 12, 9:51 pm
  #1329  
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Originally Posted by jlemon View Post
Excellent commentary, as usual, by WHBM concerning the Caravelle.....
Here! Here! WHBM, you da man! Your great color commentary is very much appreciated. ^^

There were a number of notations in the timetable column concerning this particular Caravelle service from ORD to EWR. Dinner and cocktails were served (of course) in the all F cabin with the notes "The New York EXECUTIVE" plus "Extra Fare" and "Men Only".....


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Old Jul 10, 12, 12:01 am
  #1330  
 
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I suspected mention of the Men Only would get some responses ! Did anyone here ever go on it ?

Couple of points. I see they permitted pipes and cigars to be smoked, in the confined interior of an aircraft and with a meal being served. How disgusting. Even Mr WHBM Senior (ex-WW2 RAF bomber navigator, for those interested, on Handley Page Halifaxes) who smoked a pipe all his life, would never have done so at the table. Then the reference to the stewardesses. That must have been a challenging flight for them sometimes. I wonder on how many occasions some passenger had to end up getting a slap across the face. But all references to US flight attendants of the era refer to the women, so when did men flight attendants start to appear in the USA ? In Britain they have always been here, going back to the early 1920s (well before the introduction by United of stewardesses in USA). Even in the 1950s-60s it was standard on long-haul BOAC flights, and they appear in many ads of the time; many such crew had transferred from being stewards on ocean liners.

Lastly, the departure time, always 5.00 pm from both ends. Were business hours in those days so relaxed that business travellers could be on such a flight home, leaving the office just after 3.00 pm ? For example, when I go up from London to Edinburgh nowadays, we are very much still going IN THE OFFICE at 5.00 pm, and sometimes pushed to make the 7.00 pm home, from an airport that, in comparison, is close in to the city.

Seat2A, that's a funny-looking Caravelle in the ad, isn't it
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Old Jul 10, 12, 7:15 am
  #1331  
 
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I suspected mention of the Men Only would get some responses ! Did anyone here ever go on it ?

I had just become a teenager back in April of 1966 so, no, I never did get to experience this service. I do remember seeing UA Caravelles in regular service at HSV (such as the MEM-HSV-TYS-PIT-CLE route mentioned above) in the 60's but I never had the opportunity to fly on one.....

Seat2A, that's a funny-looking Caravelle in the ad, isn't it

Perhaps it's a proto-Caravelle 6B model.....

Last edited by jlemon; Jul 19, 12 at 7:06 pm
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Old Jul 10, 12, 7:59 am
  #1332  
 
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Here's some additional information concerning UA's Caravelle service.....

United tended to operate the Caravelle primarily in the eastern U.S. with some flights getting as far west as Omaha. Here's a schedule example from a UA timetable back in August of 1963:

UA 619: BDL-ORD-DSM-OMA

UA Caravelles also flew services as far south as New Orleans, Mobile and Miami. Once again from the United timetable back in August of 1963:

UA 675: CLE-ATL-JAX-MIA

UA 683: PHL-IAD-ATL-BHM-MSY

UA 699: EWR-BHM-MOB

However, I can find no evidence that United ever operated the Caravelle on the west coast of the U.S. or any further west than Omaha.
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Old Jul 10, 12, 8:45 am
  #1333  
 
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Originally Posted by jlemon View Post
However, I can find no evidence that United ever operated the Caravelle on the west coast of the U.S. or any further west than Omaha.
Indeed. The timetables always showed this, with Omaha as a westernmost point. Bear in mind there were only 20 aircraft in the fleet and therefore this would support only a limited number of Caravelle-qualified pilot bases, they couldn't easily be spread right across United's vast network. The same was true of the much larger United Viscount fleet, they never got further west than the midwest either.

However I did read an article which said that heavy maintenance checks were performed on the Caravelles at the big United maintenance base in San Francisco, that they were ferried empty to and fro, and it was common to see one on the ramp there. Off-line maintenance bases (which SFO would be for Caravelles) were not unknown even in the 1950s-60s, there were a number in the UK as well at points which were not even commercial airport.
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Old Jul 10, 12, 9:37 am
  #1334  
 
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Originally Posted by cs57 View Post
The other route for "men only" was LAX/SFO. This route did not last long, as a woman lawyer filed a complant with the CAB when she was unable to make a reservation on the flight as it was "men only".
cs57 is correct with regard to the other "Men Only" flights being operated by United between SFO and LAX. I was unaware of the aforementioned complaint filed with the CAB and also wonder why the SFO-LAX "Men Only" service was discontinued but not the EWR-ORD service as the CAB was a federal agency.

Interestingly, UA also flew other services with the exact same departure times as the "Men Only" SFO-LAX flights. Here are the schedules from the June 1, 1961 United timetable:

SFO to LAX:

UA 17: Depart 5:00pm, arrive 6:40pm - All F cabin "Men Only" Executive flight operated with a DC-6B. "Hors d'oeuvres and beverage service".

UA 897: Depart 5:00pm, arrive 6:15pm - First and coach service operated with a DC-8. No meal service in either class.

LAX to SFO:

UA 18: Depart 5:00pm, arrive 6:37pm - All F cabin "Men Only" Executive flight operated with a DC-6B. "Hors d'oeurves and beverage service".

UA 598: Depart 5:00pm, arrive 6:30pm - All F cabin operated with a DC-7. Full dinner service. Flight originated in SAN and continued on to PDX, PDT and GEG.

UA 772: Depart 5:00pm, arrive 6:02pm - First and coach service operated with a B720. No meal service in either class. Flight continued on to SEA.

Last edited by jlemon; Jul 10, 12 at 3:58 pm Reason: Additional comments & meal service notes
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Old Jul 11, 12, 12:15 pm
  #1335  
 
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Originally Posted by tonywestsider View Post
Thanks, jlemon for the history. Even up to 2007, which was when I last flew on the pre-merger YX, they were serving steaks and tapas in their Signature Service 717 flights between LAX and MKE and MKE to DCA. I also flew pre-merger YX from LGA to MKE with the same type of service. Their 2+2 seating were leather Recaro seats with legrests. I think they used real salt and pepper shakers with their meal service. In addition to cooked onboard chocolate chip cookies, they also served gazpacho soup and were probably the only domestic airline to do so without F class. They also had Digi-players on board these flights.

Then in 2011, I flew on the post-merger YX from DCA to MKE in an Embraer E-170, where only sodas and coffee were served, along with the chocolate chip cookies and broken reading lights to accompany the inflight service. The contrast between the former and the latter YX (now F9) made me burst suddenly into tears after the flight.
Well, Tony, I finally got around to looking the current F9 route map which incorporates the old YX routes.....

Only one problem: a vast majority of the old YX routes from MKE and other cities are no longer flown by F9.

Man, did the Republic and Frontier guys decimate Midwest or what?! I'm surprised they even bought YX what with elimination of service from MKE that has been undertaken since the acquisition......
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