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Old Timer's Airline Quiz and Discussion

Old Timer's Airline Quiz and Discussion

Old Jul 5, 12, 7:37 pm
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Originally Posted by jlemon View Post
It's 1:55am here at latitude 65. Although the sun set a little more than an hour ago, there's plenty enough light to fire off a few new questions based upon schedules published in the November 15, 1970 OAG. Good luck and good night!

When in doubt, try, try again!

7. Name the three airlines that offered nonstop 747 service between Chicago and Los Angeles.

American, Continental and TWA

11. Which U.S. airlines were operating 720s on the November 15, 1970 schedule?

Alaska, American, Braniff, Continental, Eastern, United and Western

13. By 1970, only one airline still flew Lockheed Electras to and from Seattle. Name the airline and the single route served.

Western: Kodiak-Seattle nonstop
P.S. - And if Eastern is not the other B720 operator back in Nov. of 1970, I'll then go with Northwest (which I probably should have gone with in the first place!)......
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Old Jul 5, 12, 8:00 pm
  #1262  
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Originally Posted by jlemon View Post
When in doubt, try, try again!

7. Name the three airlines that offered nonstop 747 service between Chicago and Los Angeles.

American, Continental and TWA

Correctamundo! It was the Proud With The Golden Tail

11. Which U.S. airlines were operating 720s on the November 15, 1970 schedule?

Alaska, American, Braniff, Continental, Northwest, United and Western

Northwest is the right choice as Eastern had divested itself of its 720s shortly before this OAG was published. I did a bit of research on Alaska Airlines though (since its flights were listed under equipment as "JET"). Alaska did not take delivery of its first 720 until April 1973. All of the 720s were purchased from other airlines (WA -ex PNA, BN and UA) and were not used past 1975.

13. By 1970, only one airline still flew Lockheed Electras to and from Seattle. Name the airline and the single route served.

Western: Kodiak-Seattle nonstop

Right again! Back then, Western's Electra was The Only Way To Fly between Seattle and Kodiak (Twice weekly service). Ten years later I flew the same route aboard a Wien Air Alaska 737-200.

Last edited by Seat 2A; Jul 5, 12 at 8:13 pm
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Old Jul 6, 12, 7:43 am
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Hey Seat 2A! Since you are in the possession of a historical artifact, being the Nov. 15, 1970 edition of the North American OAG, perhaps you can answer some questions!

It has been noted that Western was the last operator of the Lockheed L-188 Electra into Seattle (SEA) with nonstop service twice a week from Kodiak (ADQ). So the question is: where did the Electra fly the rest of the time back in November of 1970? I know that as late as 1968, Western operated Lockheed L-749 Constellation service from Anchorage (ANC) on local Alaskan service flights to such exotic locations as Cordova, Homer, Juneau, Kenai, King Salmon, Kodiak and Yakutat. Did Western base Electra aircraft at ANC for these Alaskan routes with the L-188 replacing the Constellation service by the fall of 1970?

And speaking of the Boeing 720, it's interesting to note that Western operated both versions of this great airplane back in 1968: the B720 and B720B (I believe the latter was equipped with turbofan engines rather than the turbojet engines found on the initial version of the 720).
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Old Jul 6, 12, 8:46 am
  #1264  
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13. I would have guessed Braniff Dallas - Seattle.

The Electra may have the record for most accidents until they redesigned the motor mount
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Old Jul 6, 12, 9:41 am
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Originally Posted by BeatCal View Post
13. I would have guessed Braniff Dallas - Seattle.

The Electra may have the record for most accidents until they redesigned the motor mount
Well, I don't think Braniff's Electra aircraft were ever used north or west of Denver.....However, BN did have an interchange flight at one point in conjunction with Eastern using an Electra on a routing of DEN-AMA-OKC-TUL-LIT-MEM-BHM-ATL. Memphis was the interchange point. This BN-EA interchange flight was later changed to a routing of DEN-MEM-ATL-MIA and flown with with a B727-100. MEM remained the interchange point.

Back in 1966, Braniff served Seattle and Portland via an interchange agreement with United. Routings were SEA-DEN-DAL-HOU and SEA-PDX-DAL-HOU. Denver was the interchange point and I believe Boeing 720 aircraft were used for the service.

By 1968, Braniff had received CAB route approval to serve Seattle and Portland directly. Typical routings at the time included SEA-DAL-SAT, SEA-PDX-DAL-SAT and SEA-PDX-DAL-AUS-SAT. Boeing 727-100 equipment was used for this service. And BN also operated B727 Combi aircraft at this time on a red eye routing of SEA-PDX-DFW. The aircraft was configured with 51 coach seats in the rear of the 727 and the freight was loaded via roll on/roll off pallets in the front just aft of the flight deck.

Last edited by jlemon; Jul 6, 12 at 2:33 pm Reason: Additional BN-EA interchange info
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Old Jul 6, 12, 10:07 am
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Originally Posted by BeatCal View Post
The Electra may have the record for most accidents until they redesigned the motor mount
The Electra suffered just two crashes due to the "whirl mode" design flaw.

More than two 727s were lost in its first couple of years because the crews were not able to control the high sink rate during approach. Early 707s also had a higher than expected accident rate for similar reasons - crew unfamiliarity.

The Electra is by no means the "record" holder, it's just that the early accidents generated a lot of negative publicity (reasonably so). It seems that continues.
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Old Jul 6, 12, 10:35 am
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Originally Posted by Wally Bird View Post
The Electra suffered just two crashes due to the "whirl mode" design flaw.

More than two 727s were lost in its first couple of years because the crews were not able to control the high sink rate during approach. Early 707s also had a higher than expected accident rate for similar reasons - crew unfamiliarity.
Structural airframe breakups have always had a fascination for the lay press and public, despite them being a tiny fraction of aircraft accidents, which in turn are a tiny fraction of flights operated, no more so than the Comet accidents of the early 1950s. In fact the early Comets also had accidents due to crew unfamiliarity - Canadian Pacific lost their first on its delivery flight.
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Old Jul 6, 12, 10:44 am
  #1268  
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Originally Posted by jlemon View Post
Did Western base Electra aircraft at ANC for these Alaskan routes with the L-188 replacing the Constellation service by the fall of 1970?
The Connies were ex-Pacific Northern birds and were sold off by December 1968. As for Western's Electras, I found this tidbit that might shed some light on Western's operations. I was unable to find any other Electra operated schedules in the 11/15/70 OAG, and aside from the SEA-ADQ flight, it would appear that all of Western's operations in Alaska were flown with 720s. Additionally, there were no flights operated by Western between ANC and ADQ, at least not as of 11/70.

And speaking of the Boeing 720, it's interesting to note that Western operated both versions of this great airplane back in 1968: the B720 and B720B (I believe the latter was equipped with turbofan engines rather than the turbojet engines found on the initial version of the 720).

Western inherited three turbojet equipped 720s from PNA

N7081 720-048 07/67 Acquired 04/73 ex PN ex-EI-ALB
N720V 720-062 07/67 Acquired 05/73 ex PN
N720W 720-062 07/67 Acquired 05/73 ex PN

The other 26 720s were all -047Bs.

Western also operated a couple of turbojet powered 707-139s. These airplanes were originally built for Cubana but when that order was cancelled Western took them in May 1960 to get a head start on its jet operations until the first of its 720Bs arrived in 1961. The -139s were sold to Pan Am in 1962 and were subsequently converted to -139Bs.
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Old Jul 6, 12, 11:30 am
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Thanks for the excellent link concerning Kodiak, Seat 2A!

Very interesting to see the Western B720 commencing its takeoff roll from ADQ! I honestly did not know that WA operated jet equipment served Kodiak.

BTW, my trips into ADQ were on board Alaska Air B737-200s from ANC. I was also present at Kodiak for the first landing ever of a brand new Dash 8 operated by Era Aviation. And didn't MarkAir also serve ADQ with B737-200s before their big falling out with AS?
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Old Jul 6, 12, 5:34 pm
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Braniff started flights in the 70s from Seattle to Dallas. I guess that it was an Electra as they, Eastern and American had the vast majority of them and it would make sense that it was used.

Side fact Amelia Ernhart flew a model 10 Electra
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Old Jul 6, 12, 5:37 pm
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Originally Posted by Wally Bird View Post
The Electra suffered just two crashes due to the "whirl mode" design flaw.
Of the total of 170 Electras built, as of June 2011 58 have been written off because of crashes and other accidents.[24]
February 3, 1959: American Airlines Flight 320 en route from Chicago to New York City crashed on approach, killing 65 of 73 on board.[25][26]
September 29, 1959: A Braniff Electra (Braniff Flight 542) crashed in Buffalo, Texas en route to Dallas, Texas from Houston, Texas. All Twenty-nine passengers and five crew members died in the crash. The Civil Aeronautics Board blamed the crash on the "whirl-mode" prop theory and in-flight separation of a wing from the aircraft.[27][28]
March 17, 1960: An Electra operated as Northwest Orient Flight 710, en route from Chicago to Miami, Florida, broke apart in flight over Perry County, Indiana, in the second "whirl-mode" crash. All 63 people on board were killed (57 passengers and six crew members).[6][29]
October 4, 1960: Eastern Air Lines Flight 375 crashed on takeoff from Boston, Massachusetts's Logan International Airport, killing 62 of 72 on board. The crash was eventually determined to be the result of bird ingestion in three engines rather than structural failure.[30]
June 12, 1961: KLM Flight 823 crashed short of the runway at Cairo killing 20 out of the 36 on board.[31]
September 17, 1961: Northwest Orient Airlines Flight 706 crashed on takeoff from Chicago-O'Hare International Airport, killing all 37 on board. The crash was eventually determined to be the result of mechanical failure in the aileron primary control system due to an improper replacement of the aileron boost assembly.[32]
April 22, 1966: An American Flyers Airline L-188 crashed into a hill on approach to Ardmore Municipal Airport, killing all 5 crew and 78 of the 93 passengers on board.
February 16, 1967: Garuda Indonesia Airways Flight 708 crashed while attempting to land at Manado-Sam Ratulangi Airport. 22 of 92 passengers and crew on board were killed. The crash was eventually determined to be the result of an awkward landing technique resulting in an excessive rate of sink on touchdown. Marginal weather at the time of landing was a contributing factor.[33]
May 3, 1968: Braniff Flight 352, which was en route from Houston to Dallas, disintegrated over Dawson, Texas. All 80 passengers and five crew members were killed. This was the worst air disaster in Texas at the time. The Probable Cause found by the National Transportation Safety Board was excessive loads put upon the aircraft structure while attempting to recover from an unusual attitude resulting from loss of control in thunderstorm turbulence; the operation in the turbulence resulted from a decision to penetrate an area of known severe weather.[34]
August 9, 1970: LANSA Flight 502 crashed shortly after takeoff, killing 99 of the 100 people on board, plus two people on the ground.[35]
December 24, 1971: LANSA Flight 508, which was en route from Lima to Pucallpa, Peru, entered an area of strong turbulence and lightning and disintegrated in mid air due to structural failure following a lightning strike and fire. Of the 92 people on board, 91 were killed.[36] One passenger, Juliane Koepcke, survived the crash.
June 4, 1976: An Air Manila 188A (RP-C1061) crashed just after takeoff from the Guam Naval Air Station, killing the 45 occupants and one person on the ground.[37][38]
On November 18, 1979, Transamerica Airlines L-188 (N859U), operating a flight for the US military (Logair 3N18) from Hill Air Force Base, crashed near Salt Lake City airport, Utah. While climbing between 12,000 and 13,000 ft, all electrical power was lost; the crew requesting a immediate descent. The aircraft attained a high airspeed and a high rate of descent and the aircraft disintegrated in flight killing all three crew members. The NTSB investigation stated the probable cause was a progressive failure of the aircraft electrical system leading to the disabling or erratic performance of flight critical flight instruments and lighting. As a result the crew became disoriented and lost control of the aircraft. The crew's efforts to regain control of the aircraft imposed loads which exceeded the design limits and caused it to break up in flight.
January 21, 1985: Chartered Galaxy Airlines Flight 203 crashed after takeoff from Reno-Cannon International Airport en-route to Minneapolis, Minnesota with 71 people on board.[39]
December 18, 1995: An overloaded 188C of Trans Service Airlift crashed near Cahungula, Angola with the loss of 141 of the 144 occupants.[40]
[edit]Specifications (Model 188A)

Data from Lockheed Aircraft since 1913[41]
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Old Jul 6, 12, 5:39 pm
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Originally Posted by Seat 2A View Post
Western inherited three turbojet equipped 720s from PNA

N7081 720-048 07/67 Acquired 04/73 ex PN ex-EI-ALB
N720V 720-062 07/67 Acquired 05/73 ex PN
N720W 720-062 07/67 Acquired 05/73 ex PN
.
Just a slight update here, Western acquired these three 720s in 1967 from PNA, they were disposed in 1973, to Alaska Airlines.

In their time with Western they were kept very much on services to Alaska, rather than being mixed in with the main 720B fleet, to an extent that I wonder if they required different crew licences or maintenance needs.

N7081 was indeed originally an Irish-registered Aer Lingus aircraft of 1961, but had been sold to Braniff in 1964 before coming to PNA in 1966, a year before the Western merger. Alaska Airlines sold it on again to Aero America in 1976, and it then spent its last few years back in Europe, doing their holiday charters from West Berlin down to the Mediterranean. It must have been a bit of a noisy neighbour rising up over the Berlin rooftops ! It came home to Boeing Field in Seattle, Aero America's US base, and was scrapped there 20 years after it had left on its delivery flight.
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Old Jul 6, 12, 5:53 pm
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Originally Posted by BeatCal View Post
September 29, 1959: A Braniff Electra (Braniff Flight 542) crashed in Buffalo, Texas en route to Dallas, Texas from Houston, Texas. All Twenty-nine passengers and five crew members died in the crash. The Civil Aeronautics Board blamed the crash on the "whirl-mode" prop theory and in-flight separation of a wing from the aircraft.
March 17, 1960: An Electra operated as Northwest Orient Flight 710, en route from Chicago to Miami, Florida, broke apart in flight over Perry County, Indiana, in the second "whirl-mode" crash. All 63 people on board were killed (57 passengers and six crew members).
Like I said; 2.
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Old Jul 6, 12, 6:04 pm
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What airfield was named after a pilot who died four months AFTERWARDS in a crash (hint: killed in San Diego)
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Old Jul 6, 12, 6:34 pm
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Originally Posted by Wally Bird View Post
Like I said; 2.
I count more? Semantics? Other than the "whirl mode" ?
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