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Old Timer's Airline Quiz and Discussion

Old Timer's Airline Quiz and Discussion

Old May 7, 12, 10:21 am
  #976  
 
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And here's my response to Seat 2A's answers to two of my previous questions....

9) Correct! The Air Micronesia division of CO operated the 72S into Johnston Island. JON was the first stop headed west on the very long milk run from HNL to GUM and was also the last stop headed east on the same route.

10) Braniff International and Eastern are correct! However, the routing back in 1967 was a bit different: DEN-AMA-OKC-TUL-LIT-MEM-BHM-ATL. The BN/EA crew interchange point was MEM and the aircraft was the Lockheed L-188 "Electra".

Last edited by jlemon; May 7, 12 at 1:43 pm Reason: Terminology
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Old May 7, 12, 10:32 am
  #977  
 
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Originally Posted by miniliq View Post
Likewise -- made ten trips there in the last 18 months MSY-IAH-POS RT.


If it please the court, I submit the following evidence from the thread "50 Years Of HS 748 Flying" on airliners.net:

"The BW 748s were originally flown by arawak Airlines and later Trinidad and Tobago Air Services (TTAS) on the POS - TAB airbridge. When BW merged with TTAS in 1980 it inherited the fleet of 3 Avros and later added 3 more. BW used them to serve GND, FDF and SLU at various times as well as the domestic service, as the airbridge would later be known. The planes left the fleet in 1986."
Then you are no doubt familiar with the "upside down" Hilton in Port of Spain!

The court is pleased and the additional info is very much appreciated!

BTW, I've now confirmed that British Caribbean Airways did indeed operate BAe 146-100 service between Tortola (EIS) and Miami (MIA) back in 1986. And the BAe 146 remains the only jet aircraft ever to have operated sched pax services from Tortola in the BVI due to the short runway there.
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Old May 7, 12, 10:46 am
  #978  
 
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Originally Posted by jlemon View Post
Then you are no doubt familiar with the "upside down" Hilton in Port of Spain!
Now I'm bragging, but I've spent 383 nights there to date -- it's like a second home -- actually it was our home for six months in 1994-95 while we were waiting to move into a leased house. Ali Khan, the current GM, knows me well.
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Old May 7, 12, 10:51 am
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Originally Posted by WHBM View Post
The original question was which "based" airline in this region operated Caravelles, to which the answer I would give would be AirCalin, 1983-87, running from Noumea to Australia and New Zealand. The English-language Wikipedia AirCalin page is only a summary, not covering the Caravelle, but the French version is much more descriptive.

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aircalin

However, well before this UTA did have Caravelle operations out of Noumea as well, and in fact on the same routes. UTA, a French long-haul airline from Paris, had a range of bizarre operations, but their Caravelle were one of the most extraordinary. They only bought two, in the mid-1960s. One ran from Paris two or three times a week, hip-hopping through some African minor points, which lacked the airfield facilities and/or loads to warrant a mainstream DC-8. The other was based in Noumea and ran services around the Pacific, again on very low frequency; it had taken over from a DC-4 which did the same thing. Quite how UTA managed to operate efficiently just two Caravelles, each based at opposite ends of the earth, has to be one of those mysteries, just like how they managed Los Angeles to Tahiti near-daily for many years when their only licences connecting this with their Paris base were out through Asia and across the South Pacific - and they did send their DC-8s, and later DC-10s, this way, running Paris-Asian points-Noumea-Tahiti-LAX, then doing one or more LAX-Tahiti shuttles, as well as Tahiti to Tokyo and Sydney, finally picking up a return leg to Paris. French flight crews were on a (doubtless very pleasant) long-term secondment to Tahiti or Noumea, but all the maintenance beyond daily line checks was done in Paris. I do wonder if there were any AirCalin Caravelle captains in Noumea who had, 20 years before, been junior UTA Caravelle first officers there.

Here's part of the 1968 UTA schedule in the Pacific, complete with the Caravelles

http://www.timetableimages.com/ttima...68/ut68-06.jpg

Now while I am writing this, I recall there was also for many years a detachment of French Air Force Caravelles in Tahiti as well, supporting the French missile tests in the area. Here's two of them.

http://www.airliners.net/photo/Franc...0be9e4c80edaab
Fascinating to see these old timetables and very much appreciated....

We flew round trip Papeete-Raiatea in French Polynesia on board an Air Tahiti ATR-72-500 several years ago and the service on board this new aircraft was quite nice. I can only imagine what it would have been like to fly the same route on board a DC-4 back in the day....
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Old May 7, 12, 11:19 am
  #980  
 
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Originally Posted by Seat 2A View Post
1.) Cubana ordered two 707s but was unable to take delivery due to the embargo against Castro’s government. What happened to those 707s and what made them distinct by U.S. standards?
Very interesting question. Even after a lot of digging, I still don't know the answer to "what made them distinct", which you will have to explain.

Supposedly they were standard 707-120 series -- I don't know what the 139 series designation was -- perhaps a special modification for the proposed customer? (e.g. seven series 138 with a slightly shortened fuselage were built for Qantas).
Anyway, only two 139s were built, in 1960, and after the Cubana deal fell through, they went to Western, which used them between SEA and LAX. In 1962 they were leased to PanAm. One of them (Clipper Southern Cross) was a write-off after it slid off the runway at JFK in 1994. The other (Clipper Skylark) flew for several other airlines until it was broken up for parts in 1986, but not before it was used in the movie "Hijacker." Now please tell us the rest of the story!
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Old May 7, 12, 11:40 am
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I'll go ahead and close out my final quiz item that I submitted over the weekend.....

3) Eastern Airlines offered "Famous Restaurant Service" on selected flights. It appears this service was primarily offered on longer routes operated with DC-8 aircraft.
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Old May 7, 12, 1:16 pm
  #982  
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Thanks everyone for your answers! We're alot ealier here in Alaska so y'all're up and firing off answers long before I'm even awake! Well, good job, everyone, and let's get to those answers, starting from the first question:

1.) Cubana ordered two 707s but was unable to take delivery due to the embargo against Castro’s government. What happened to those 707s and what made them distinct by U.S. standards?

miniliq is correct that the 707-139s originally built for Cubana were taken up by Western. The -39 is a unique number that Boeing used to designate aircraft built for Cubana. Boeing designated each airline with its own unique number such as Western (-47) or Alaska (-90). Years of laboriously listing by hand all of my airline postcards (Over 20000 at one point) has left me with most of the first 100 designations memorized - great for remembering phone numbers or addresses (Her phone number is 683-Eastern-Qantas - i.e. 2538). Anyway, what made those two 707s distinct? They were the first domestic version 707s to feature the extended vertical tail and though I'm not sure on this, they may have also been the first domestic 707s to have the small ventral fin added at the rear underside of the aircraft.

2.) Which U.S. airline operated the Fokker 70?

Kudos to both miniliq and jlemon for providing the correct answer and detail on this question. It was Desert Sun/Mesa dba America West Express. So far as I know, they may well have been the only Fokker 70 operator in North America. Anyone know of any others?

4.) What airline once operated daily 747 nonstop flights between Chicago and Anchorage?

Right on, jlemon!

9.) What South Pacific based airline operated the Caravelle?

I was thinking of Air Caledonie/Air Calin. True, the question was "South Pacific based airline" but a multitude of thanks go out to WHBM for the added information on UTA's Caravelle operation in the region. It's detail like this between us all that makes this thread so entertaining as well as informative. Thanks again to our pal across the pond.

11. Name the major U.S. airline and its aircraft that once served Pendleton, Oregon with jets.

jlemon is correct! United served Pendleton with 727-100s.

12. Back in 1980 I flew aboard this airline on the following routing: DEN-GTF-FCA-GEG-SEA. What airline was it?

Alas, it wasn't Frontier. Here's a hint: The aircraft wasn't a Boeing...

Last edited by Seat 2A; May 8, 12 at 1:35 am
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Old May 7, 12, 1:48 pm
  #983  
 
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12) Ah, how could I forget.....perhaps it was the "Top Banana in The West"?

Hughes Air West DC-9 service on a routing of DEN-GTF-FCA-GEG-SEA.
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Old May 7, 12, 1:49 pm
  #984  
 
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Originally Posted by Seat 2A View Post
2.) Which U.S. airline operated the Fokker 70?

Kudos to both miniliq and jlemon for providing the correct answer and detail on this question. It was Desert Sun/Mesa dba America West Express. So far as I know, they may well have been the only Fokker 70 operator in North America. Anyone know of any others?
You know, I really must apologise for being the one who comes along and so rudely knocks down others' comments. Anyway, there were two other F.70s bought in North America, they were N322K and N324K, which were bought by Ford in 1994-5, and used on corporate work until 2010, when they were sold to Air Panama, where they continue as HP1731 and HP1732. Panama airport is just south of the canal, so they don't quite count as being in North America any more.

Many of the photos on the web of them in Ford days are in Detroit, so I presume that's where they were based.

http://jetphotos.net/viewphoto.php?id=5834054&nseq=4

By coincidence I came through Amsterdam Schipol only yesterday whilst returning home, and saw probably the bulk of the remaining F70 fleet there, still very much in use with KLM. This fleet includes the two former America West ones.
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Old May 7, 12, 2:11 pm
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Originally Posted by WHBM View Post
You know, I really must apologise for being the one who comes along and so rudely knocks down others' comments. Anyway, there were two other F.70s bought in North America, they were N322K and N324K, which were bought by Ford in 1994-5, and used on corporate work until 2010, when they were sold to Air Panama, where they continue as HP1731 and HP1732. Panama airport is just south of the canal, so they don't quite count as being in North America any more.

Many of the photos on the web of them in Ford days are in Detroit, so I presume that's where they were based.

http://jetphotos.net/viewphoto.php?id=5834054&nseq=4

By coincidence I came through Amsterdam Schipol only yesterday whilst returning home, and saw probably the bulk of the remaining F70 fleet there, still very much in use with KLM. This fleet includes the two former America West ones.
So I think it's safe to say the Desert Sun/Mesa/America West Express aircraft were the only F-70s ever flown in scheduled passenger airline service in the U.S.....and it's interesting to note that these small jetliners were probably ahead of their time given the number of CRJ-700 and Embraer 170/175 aircraft being flown by the regionals these days....

On another note, WHBM, can you confirm the route and aircraft type flown by AOM French Airlines (formerly Air Outre-Mer) with regard to their service between Paris and Papeete? I think this service was operated with a DC-10-30 via a stop at LAX.....but I've been unable to confirm this.

Last edited by jlemon; May 7, 12 at 2:18 pm
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Old May 7, 12, 3:17 pm
  #986  
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Originally Posted by WHBM
You know, I really must apologise for being the one who comes along and so rudely knocks down others' comments. Anyway, there were two other F.70s bought in North America, they were N322K and N324K, which were bought by Ford in 1994-5, and used on corporate work until 2010, when they were sold to Air Panama, where they continue as HP1731 and HP1732. Panama airport is just south of the canal, so they don't quite count as being in North America any more.
Speaking for myself at least, I take absolutely no offense as I hardly consider your comments "knocking down" so much as "adding to". If we were all sitting in a room somewhere having a conversation and I said "So far as I know UTA never operated Caravelles in the South Pacific" and you responded with "Actually, they did. They flew etc. etc." I think we'd all agree that such additions wouldn't be rude so much as good, enjoyable repartee from which we'd all benefit. Your knowledge of airlines and airliners is as extensive as it is impressive, so I think it's fair to say we all appreciate your comments and, as it may come up - corrections. It's worth noting however, again speaking only for myself, that the primary subject of my questions and answers are scheduled and charter airlines rather than corporate owned jetliners, of which I have neither knowledge or interest in. That said, information such as you've provided above can only add to the entertainment and information base hopefully provided in this thread, so it's all good.

By the way, jlemon, Hughes Airwest is indeed correct! My flight back to Denver routed SEA-GEG-LWS-BOI-TWF-SLC-DEN. Man, I sure miss those milkruns! Many of the segments were short enough that the flights weren't all that high and so they were like air tours of the American countryside.

Additionally, I did a little checking on the AOM route to Tahiti and came up with THIS. If you scroll about halfway down you'll see a quote from Christopher who indicates he was the LAX Reservations Manager of AOM, which was flying CDG-LAX-PPT. He doesn't mention the aircraft, but I would guess it could have been a DC-10-30, especially in light of THIS comment on Yahoo forums. A subsequent comment goes on to mention that AOM at some point switched to an A340 on this route.

Also, back in 1981 I flew from Papeete to Raiatea on an Air Polynesie F-27. That was a great trip that included First Class air between Los Angeles and Papeete on an Air New Zealand DC-10, a two week independant fam through Ted Cook's Islands In The Sun that included visits to Bora Bora, Raiatea, Moorea and Tahiti. My return to LA was in First Class aboard UTA's 747. I remember really looking forward to that flight in expectation of excellent "French" service in UTA's Galaxy Class. Unfortunately, the service was a bit underwhelming compared to that of Air New Zealand and in retrospect I should have gone with my other option which would have been flying South Pacific Island Airways' 707 from Tahiti to Pago Pago to Honolulu, then connecting the next day to Braniff's 747 to DFW and whatever 727 back to Denver. SPIA wasn't well known for its cabin service, but by 1981 many airlines were starting to retire their 707s from passenger service and it would've been a great routing to have flown, especially in First Class. The view of those two big Pratt & Whitney JT3Ds from the perspective of the First Class cabin windows was always one of my favorites. My last flight on a 707 came in 1983 between Quito, Guayaquil and Miami aboard Ecuatoriana.



One of the finest views aloft

Last edited by Seat 2A; May 7, 12 at 8:31 pm
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Old May 7, 12, 11:42 pm
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Originally Posted by Seat 2A View Post
Speaking for myself at least, I take absolutely no offense as I hardly consider your comments "knocking down" so much as "adding to". If we were all sitting in a room somewhere having a conversation and I said "So far as I know UTA never operated Caravelles in the South Pacific" and you responded with "Actually, they did. They flew etc. etc." I think we'd all agree that such additions wouldn't be rude so much as good, enjoyable repartee from which we'd all benefit. Your knowledge of airlines and airliners is as extensive as it is impressive, so I think it's fair to say we all appreciate your comments and, as it may come up - corrections. It's worth noting however, again speaking only for myself, that the primary subject of my questions and answers are scheduled and charter airlines rather than corporate owned jetliners, of which I have neither knowledge or interest in. That said, information such as you've provided above can only add to the entertainment and information base hopefully provided in this thread, so it's all good.

By the way, jlemon, Hughes Airwest is indeed correct! My flight back to Denver routed SEA-GEG-LWS-BOI-TWF-SLC-DEN. Man, I sure miss those milkruns! Many of the segments were short enough that the flights weren't all that high and so they were like air tours of the American countryside.

My last flight on a 707 came in 1983 between Quito, Guayaquil and Miami aboard Ecuatoriana.



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I screwed up regarding Mid-Pacific Air. Thanks for the corrections. My answer was just based on memory. I'm relying on you all to confirm and confirm you did.

Regarding the Caravelles in the south pacific, UTA always had me fooled. Growing up in Hawaii, they always marketed themselves as a South Pacific airline, as if they were based in PPT. They even had a route to my home city, PPT-HNL. I always used to see their green and blue colored DC-8s at HNL. I should have mentioned Air Calin but I did not get that far to check. But at least WHBM confirmed that UTA Caravelles did fly in the South Pacific and was based there but it wasn't the airline's headquarters. Oh well, at least I started a long conversation.

Last edited by tonywestsider; May 8, 12 at 12:54 am
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Old May 8, 12, 12:28 am
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Originally Posted by Seat 2A View Post
Thank you to WHBM for the excellent answer regarding Air Pacific's BAC-111 and especially a bit of history on Air Nauru. I believe they were mining phosphate down there on Nauru and for awhile the citizens were doing pretty well. Last I heard unemployment exceeded 80%!
I completely blew this as well. Can't believe I left out Air Pacific's BAC-111 and Air Nauru had F-28s. Oh well, my bad....
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Old May 8, 12, 12:50 am
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Originally Posted by Seat 2A View Post
Correct, and thank you for the addition of the Micronesia Room. I totally forgot to add that one to the total when I wrote up the question. I should've known better since that's the room I sat in when I flew CO's 747 back in 1971. By the way, do you know what the Oceania Lounge was originally called?

10.) I stand to be corrected on this: Air Micronesia, Trans Australia Airlines (which became Australian Airlines), Air Tungaru (predecessor of now Air Kiribati).

You are correct on Air Mike and Air Tungaru (Good call on the latter as it was a relatively short lived and not well known airline.) Since Australia is a continent and not an island, I can't allow TAA, Ansett or Bloodstock Aviation. There is however one other island based airline that's livery on its 727-100s was based upon its flag..
Was CO's Oceania Lounge originally called the Diamond Head Lounge?

I give up on number 10, except that Air Niugini leased 727s from TAA/Ansett, although they might have been the 200 series.
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Old May 8, 12, 1:03 am
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Originally Posted by tonywestsider View Post
I completely blew this as well. Can't believe I left out Air Pacific's BAC-111 and Air Nauru had F-28s. Oh well, my bad....
All is forgiven, Tony . Open a beer and have a go at the next set of questions!

In response to my question #10 (Name three Pacific Island based airlines that operated the 727-100), the other unnamed airline besides Air Tungaru and Air Micronesia was Air Nauru.

That leaves these two questions unanswered:

5.) What airline once flew DC-8-71s between Anchorage and Fairbanks
I've flown this route a couple of times on United DC-8-71s. The routing was ORD-ANC-FAI. For a time it was also operated with a 767-200.

6.) Braniff originally ordered two 747-127s but only took delivery of one. What color would the second one have been?
Green. Dark Green. I've seen a bit about this in Airways Magazine's Braniff tribute issue, but a bit more information is posted HERE
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