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Old Timer's Airline Quiz and Discussion

Old Timer's Airline Quiz and Discussion

Old Apr 21, 12, 8:11 am
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WHBM: Some discussion points for a wet and cold (well, it is here in London) weekend.

There have been a number of aircraft types over time which have been pretty much directly competitive, and airlines make the choice to have one or the other.

But which US airlines had BOTH ......

a) Tristar and DC-10.

b) 707 and DC-8.

c) 737 classic and DC-9



a) Delta. When the L-1011 deliveries were delayed, DL opted to operate DC-10s until the Tristar became available. Hawaiian Air also transitioned from L-1011s to DC-10s. I believe at least some of these DC-10s were formerly operated by AA. And I believe Pan Am operated both types with DC-10s coming from National Airlines.

b) Braniff International and I think (maybe) Western.

c) Continental Airlines. The B737 classics came from Peoples Express and I think Frontier as well.

Last edited by jlemon; Apr 21, 12 at 8:21 am
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Old Apr 21, 12, 11:12 am
  #917  
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Originally Posted by WHBM View Post
Some discussion points for a wet and cold (well, it is here in London) weekend.

There have been a number of aircraft types over time which have been pretty much directly competitive, and airlines make the choice to have one or the other.

But which US airlines had BOTH ......

a) Tristar and DC-10.

b) 707 and DC-8.

c) 737 classic and DC-9.
.
Others have answered, here are more...
L-1011 Tristar and DC-10: United, getting the Tristars from Pan Am

707 and DC-8: Pan Am, ordered both new

737-200 and DC-9: Delta, technically Southwest (had DC-9-82 operated by Muse Air, which Southwest acquired), Alaska
It's possible that the original question seeks to exclude the MD-80, which was certificated as the DC-9-80 series, in which case, Delta is an answer.
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Old Apr 22, 12, 1:26 am
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Originally Posted by jlemon View Post
I do not believe that Palmdale received mainline jet service as well. SkyWest, operating as United Express, did fly Swearingen Metro and Embraer EMB-120 turboprops to LAX from Palmdale (but I do not think the CRJ was used on this route).....and I seem to recall that America West Express operated Dash 8 turboprops from Palmdale to Las Vegas.

BTW, Palmdale Airport was home for the Lockheed L-1011 production line.....
I agree with you. I did a bit more research into the airline service at PMD. Air West (RW) operated F27s there. Pacific Airlines might also have operated prop equipment there as well. It seems logical that no mainline jet service was provided at PMD because the airport is considered a "hot, high" airport, which makes it difficult to have pure jet operations there.


Originally Posted by WHBM View Post
Some discussion points for a wet and cold (well, it is here in London) weekend.

But which US airlines had BOTH ......

d) Constellation and DC-7.
Add to this was Pan Am, and I believe, Braniff.
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Old Apr 22, 12, 2:45 pm
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Originally Posted by WHBM View Post
But which US airlines had BOTH ......

b) 707 and DC-8.
I'll do some notes on these one at a time.

707 and DC8.

Pan Am bought both the first DC8s and first 707s. The 707s were delivered first, and while Pan Am moved on through the range of 707 developments, they didn't care for the DC8, and these were one of the first jets any airline sold off, from the mid-1960s. Pan Am's timetable never distinguished between the types, but their operations team obviously did. During the period of both serving, the DC8 operated about half the services through London, and the (low frequency) routes from New York to Scandinavia and Africa. There was also, after they were all sold, one DC8-62, N1803, which they got later on from Braniff which was in full Pan Am livery and operated in 1970-71 from Miami. I never understood how that happened.

Northwest's first jets were DC8s, they bought 5 (for their Transpacific routes)and had another 5 on order, then got into some upset with Douglas, sold the fleet, cancelled what was on order (which were near to completion), and didn't do any more business with Douglas for the next 10 years. Like Pan Am, they moved over entirely to Boeing jets.

Braniff went the other way, bought several of the 707 variants, then once they took over Panagra and their DC8s they standardised on those and disposed of the 707s, some only a few years old.

World Airways built up quite a 707 fleet and were a pioneer jet charter operator, but quite late in the day for the old 4-engined narrowbodies, moved over to DC-8-63Fs and sold the Boeings off.
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Old Apr 22, 12, 3:44 pm
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jlemon, I believe you're right regarding the Fort Worth Airport. Does any airline operate out of GSW now?

From the November 15th, 1970 OAG, I also found Eastern flying 727s into Titusville, Florida. I believe that airport is no longer serviced by any commercial airline.

WHBM, I did a little more checking in that November 1970 OAG. American's 707s are noted as either B3F for the 707-320 or B7F for the shorter -123s. The 720Bs are all listed as B2F. This is not to say that you're wrong in saying that AA operated its 720Bs on transcons, for perhaps they did at some point, but in that particular OAG there is no evidence of it.

As for the transcon routes that I did find operating with 720Bs, both were operated by Northwest:
JFK-SEA
IAD-SEA

Additionally WHBM, Thank You for the great detail on the early operators of the 707/DC-8. I never knew that Pan American had ever operated a DC-8-62. That's one photo I'm going to have to look for. I'm surprised Braniff didn't end up with it...
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Old Apr 22, 12, 4:15 pm
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Originally Posted by Seat 2A View Post
I never knew that Pan American had ever operated a DC-8-62. That's one photo I'm going to have to look for. I'm surprised Braniff didn't end up with it...
Here's one

http://jetphotos.net/viewphoto.php?id=261236

and it did end up with Braniff
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Old Apr 22, 12, 9:40 pm
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Originally Posted by jlemon View Post
Correct! Houston Intercontinental Airport (IAH).....and the month and year were June of 1969.
And as a prelude to the opening (I can't remember how many days ahead of time), the public was invited to drive their cars on the runways -- which I did. Have any other airports done that as a publicity stunt?
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Old Apr 23, 12, 10:11 am
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[I]jlemon, I believe you're right regarding the Fort Worth Airport. Does any airline operate out of GSW now?

Greater Southwest (GSW) was located just south of present day DFW and was closed to make way for the then-new Dallas/Ft. Worth airport. I believe there would have been significant air space issues had GSW not been closed - DFW is quite close to the site of the old GSW......

We had some discussion concerning GSW some posts back while you were visiting South Africa during your most recent adventure (and, BTW, let me commend you concerning your superb trip reports featuring your roundtrip journey in F on CX on board the venerable 744).....
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Old Apr 23, 12, 3:27 pm
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But which US airlines had BOTH ......
a) Tristar and DC-10.

Add Arrow Air to the list. I knew they had DC-10s and as a postcard collector I thought they might have had L-1011s as well. I checked. They did.

c) 737 classic and DC-9[/I]
Braniff, in one of its many reincarnations, operated both the DC-9-10 and the 737-200. Both were painted blue in the ultra livery.

Regarding airports that were once served by jets but now have no service, add Shemya Island, Alaska - once served by Reeve Aleutian 727s. Also, Annette Island, Alaska (Metlakatla), once served by Western 720s.

jlemon, thanks for your comments on the trip reports. Given the subject matter, they were alot of fun to write. Should you ever be interested in more, you'll find them HERE.
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Old Apr 25, 12, 7:28 pm
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[B]tonywestsider]: - I agree with you. I did a bit more research into the airline service at PMD. Air West (RW) operated F27s there. Pacific Airlines might also have operated prop equipment there as well. It seems logical that no mainline jet service was provided at PMD because the airport is considered a "hot, high" airport, which makes it difficult to have pure jet operations there.[/I]

I am reminded of a terrible accident that occurred at LAX on February 1, 1991 involving a SkyWest Metroliner turboprop that was departing for Palmdale (PMD). And I had connected through LAX to a SkyWest flight that very evening just hours before the accident occurred......

SkyWest 5569 (which I believe was being operated as a Delta Connection codeshare flight) was cleared for an intersection departure by the LAX tower. By using such an intersection departure, the SkyWest Metroliner was cleared onto the runway over 2000 feet from the threshold. Such intersection departures were common at LAX at that time back when many of the regional airlines primarily operated small turboprop airliners such as the Metro that did not require the full length of the long runways at LAX for take offs. I experienced many such intersection departures at LAX flying on board Metros, Beech 99s and EMB-110 "Bandits" back in the day when I would fly home to the San Luis Obispo area (SBP) via a LAX connection.

However, the tower then mistakenly cleared a USAir B737-300 to land on same runway the SkyWest Metro flight crew had been instructed to taxi onto in preparation for take off. It was dark and the flight crew of USAir flight did not see the Metro sitting on the runway just over 2000 feet from the threshold. I also seem to recall that the ground radar at LAX was not operating correctly that evening. And so USAir 1493 slammed into the SkyWest Metro, killing both pilots and all ten passengers on board the turboprop. 21 persons including the USAir Capt. on board the 733 also died.

As stated above, I boarded a SkyWest Metro operating as a DL Connection flight at LAX just hours before the accident occurred that evening on my way to SBP. And yes, we took off via an intersection departure.

I believe that intersection departures are no longer allowed at LAX.

Last edited by jlemon; Apr 25, 12 at 7:41 pm
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Old Apr 25, 12, 7:34 pm
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The OAG did distinguish between aircraft types. For example UA operated 2 different type of 727-200's, J and E version. The J version were the original ones, had about 28 and then the E version could fly longer range. All OAG said was 72S but UA say crew schedules did spell it out.
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Old Apr 25, 12, 11:27 pm
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Originally Posted by jlemon View Post
[B]tonywestsider]: - I agree with you. I did a bit more research into the airline service at PMD. Air West (RW) operated F27s there. Pacific Airlines might also have operated prop equipment there as well. It seems logical that no mainline jet service was provided at PMD because the airport is considered a "hot, high" airport, which makes it difficult to have pure jet operations there.[/I]

I am reminded of a terrible accident that occurred at LAX on February 1, 1991 involving a SkyWest Metroliner turboprop that was departing for Palmdale (PMD). And I had connected through LAX to a SkyWest flight that very evening just hours before the accident occurred......

SkyWest 5569 (which I believe was being operated as a Delta Connection codeshare flight) was cleared for an intersection departure by the LAX tower. By using such an intersection departure, the SkyWest Metroliner was cleared onto the runway over 2000 feet from the threshold. Such intersection departures were common at LAX at that time back when many of the regional airlines primarily operated small turboprop airliners such as the Metro that did not require the full length of the long runways at LAX for take offs. I experienced many such intersection departures at LAX flying on board Metros, Beech 99s and EMB-110 "Bandits" back in the day when I would fly home to the San Luis Obispo area (SBP) via a LAX connection.

However, the tower then mistakenly cleared a USAir B737-300 to land on same runway the SkyWest Metro flight crew had been instructed to taxi onto in preparation for take off. It was dark and the flight crew of USAir flight did not see the Metro sitting on the runway just over 2000 feet from the threshold. I also seem to recall that the ground radar at LAX was not operating correctly that evening. And so USAir 1493 slammed into the SkyWest Metro, killing both pilots and all ten passengers on board the turboprop. 21 persons including the USAir Capt. on board the 733 also died.

As stated above, I boarded a SkyWest Metro operating as a DL Connection flight at LAX just hours before the accident occurred that evening on my way to SBP. And yes, we took off via an intersection departure.

I believe that intersection departures are no longer allowed at LAX.
Wow, you're taking me down memory lane! I was living in LA when that the crash occurred and I remember watching hours of TV news reports about that terrible accident at LAX. Thanks for the accurate recall. That was an accident never to be forgotten.
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Old Apr 26, 12, 12:35 am
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Originally Posted by jlemon View Post
[I am reminded ...accident that occurred at LAX on February 1, 1991 involving a SkyWest Metroliner ..... And I had connected through LAX to a SkyWest flight that very evening just hours before the accident occurred.......
It is strange how these close encounters occur. Just over three years earlier, in December 1987, I went to LAX to return to London. I always enjoyed going up to that restaurant (still there apparently) up in the Theme Building, and I also took a few photos, including a PSA BAe146 leaving Terminal 1. Then off to the London flight. By the time I was back home, the crew of PSA1771 had been attacked in flight, and it was lost up in central California.

Not my only experience like that.
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Old Apr 27, 12, 7:36 am
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Originally Posted by tonywestsider View Post
Wow, you're taking me down memory lane! I was living in LA when that the crash occurred and I remember watching hours of TV news reports about that terrible accident at LAX. Thanks for the accurate recall. That was an accident never to be forgotten.
Yep, I got home that evening and learned of the accident shortly thereafter as our cable service in the San Luis Obispo area carried most of the LA TV stations....

My first thought was, "That could have been me....."

Then my phone started ringing as family and friends began calling to make sure I was OK....

Last edited by jlemon; Apr 27, 12 at 7:46 am
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Old Apr 27, 12, 7:46 am
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Originally Posted by WHBM View Post
It is strange how these close encounters occur. Just over three years earlier, in December 1987, I went to LAX to return to London. I always enjoyed going up to that restaurant (still there apparently) up in the Theme Building, and I also took a few photos, including a PSA BAe146 leaving Terminal 1. Then off to the London flight. By the time I was back home, the crew of PSA1771 had been attacked in flight, and it was lost up in central California.

Not my only experience like that.
I was living on the central coast of California when the PSA BAe 146 crashed into a hillside above a reservoir near Cayucos in San Luis Obispo county. We sent one of our helicopters to the scene to assist at the request of the local Sheriff's dept. The crash site is in the beautiful coast range area adjacent to the Paso Robles wine region.

I also had previously met one of the passengers during a business meeting who was on PS 1771. He was a senior executive with Chevron who was traveling back to their corporate headquarters in the Bay Area. This gentleman had access to a business jet operated by Chevron's corporate aviation dept. but elected to fly commercial that day as it was his stated desire to save his employer some money and thus not use the company airplane.....

Last edited by jlemon; Apr 27, 12 at 12:20 pm
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