WHBM

Ah, I think I may have slightly misled the team here about the Northwest DC-7CFs in 1966, in part due to being a bit hasty, in part due to what looks like a 50-year old misprint in the Northwest timetables.

Because in the passenger schedules section, it shows the DC-7C overnight flight. Here in the March 1966 schedule is the DC-7C in the penultimate column.

http://www.timetableimages.com/ttima...66/nw66-07.jpg

And here, on the separate freighter page, is the same flight

http://www.timetableimages.com/ttima...66/nw66-10.jpg

And knowing that the NW DC-&CF conversions were combis (here is a photo of one, which also answers JL's question about which end the cargo went, along with a confirmatory statement that these DC-7CFs of Northwest were combis)

http://www.airliners.net/photo/North...c4ed4fb1a1c8b3

So I wrote that it was a combi flight.

However, closer inspection of the passenger schedule column linked above now shows it states at the top "Freight". So it seems they were not advertised as passenger flights, although inappropriately appearing in the passenger service pages as well as the cargo one. I don't know if the aircraft had been further modified to strip out the combi passenger seating. I believe in the 1960s this configuration was quite useful for military charters. In fact N290, which was lost in 1963 off Alaska with the loss of 95 passengers plus crew on a military charter, had been converted to a DC-7CF the previous year, but was obviously being operated in a fully passenger configuration, so the seats seem to have gone easily in and out.

It's notable that the quite extensive use Northwest made by 1966 of 707-320C aircraft across the US were also combi-configured, as in the passenger pages they are coach only, no first class (what horrors that would cause nowadays), and they are in the freighter pages advertising the large 707C front cargo door size. Did another US carrier do this to the same extent ?

jlemon

Correct! And these routes were both part of Pan Am's Internal German Service (IGS) at the time, of course. The August 1, 1966 Pan American timetable tells the tale as the airline was in the midst of the final replacement of their DC-6B equipment in Germany (which Pan Am called the "Douglas Super-6 Clipper") with new Boeing 727-100s with both aircraft types being operated in an all coach ("Y") configuration. I also believe the PA operated 727s were series -21 or -21C models. Initially, these 727s had "Pan American" labels on the fuselage which was then subsequently changed to "Pan Am".

According to the timetable, Pan Am operated the last DC-6B IGS flights on September 14, 1966 with 727s operating the same flights the next day. PA also operated all cargo flights with both the DC-6B and 727 on the IGS with an example being Berlin-Frankfurt. Other German cities that received Pan Am IGS flights to and from Berlin were Cologne, Dusseldorf, Munich (home of BMW and I continue to enjoy my new M4 which I took delivery of at the BMW Welt this time last year! ), Nuremberg and Stuttgart.

jlemon

Very interesting concerning Northwest operating combi service with the B707-320C! I do not know of another U.S. air carrier that flew 707 combis in scheduled service. However, as we discussed awhile back, Braniff International was operating B727-100QC combi services back in 1968 with red eye flights. BN 727 combi routes included DAL-DEN, DAL-PDX-SEA and DAL-MEM-BNA-IAD-JFK all flown round trip five nights a week. There were 51 passenger seats in an all Y configuration in the back of the aircraft and I believe the integral rear air stairs on the 727 were used to board and deplane the pax.

On the international side, a number of airlines operated combi aircraft, notably KLM all over the place with the DC-8. This was followed by 747 combi operations not only by KLM (which I believe still operates B747-400 combis) but also by Air Canada, Air France, Alitalia, Avianca, China Airlines, El Al, Lufthansa, QANTAS, Sabena, South African Airways, Swissair, UTA, Varig and perhaps others. I also believe that Sabena operated DC-10 combi aircraft as well.

WHBM

Combi widebody flights were done for by an in-flight fire in the main deck cargo area which destroyed a South African Airways 747 over the Indian Ocean routing from Hong Kong to Johannesburg. The flight attendant was meant to handle firefighting through the door at the rear of the passenger cabin, and the last report from the aircraft was that they were doing so.

At the time, every IGS route was competitive between Pan Am and BEA, and a couple of points were a three-way contest with Air France (with DC-4s !) joining in. BEA had done well with Viscounts compared to the DC-6Bs, but when the 727s came along things were reversed. BEA then replied with their "Silver Star" Viscount 700s, more legroom and full meals, and scooped quite a bit back from Pan Am, and then a couple of years later had the One-Elevens come along. The West German government, who subsidised the services, found things were getting expensive, and changed the terms so each carrier concentrated on certain routes - Pan Am to Frankfurt and BEA to Hanover, for example. On these routes, jet or not, you were confined to 10,000 feet altitude and 250 knots, which dated back to pre-pressurised days when the four-power agreements were drawn up, so the 727 didn't offer that much of an advantage.

MADPhil

My only encounter with a combi was on KLM Amsterdam<>Entebbe in 2008. I see that the 747-400 Combi is still on their list but that route is now A330-200s.

WHBM

Another bonus question. Who got the very last of the big 4-engined piston aircraft delivered new to a US airline. Which airline and what type was it ?

jlemon

My very first trip to Europe was on board a KLM 747 combi from LAX to AMS. This was back when KLM still offered three class service. I was seated up on the top deck in biz class but went down stairs to check out the coach section. The freight section in the back of the 747 was separated from pax cabin by what appeared to be a wall that could be moved at will.....but I'm not sure whether it was able to be moved or was actually fixed in place.

I'm also not sure concerning the exact model of the 747 I was flying on. It sure looked like a B747-300.....however, it may have been a B747-200 that KLM subsequently modified with the stretched upper deck. If so, I think that model was the B747-200B.....or was it actually a B747-200SUD??

And I'll pose another bonus question as well....

Besides Reeve Aleutian, what other U.S. based air carrier operated scheduled Lockheed L-188 Electra combi flights? ANSWERED.....Western Airlines. The Only Way To Fly!

WHBM

KLM had both versions, they were one of the few to take the SUD conversion of their 747-200Bs. It was a very substantial and expensive modification of an already mid-life airframe to give rather a marginal capacity increase, as only upstairs was lengthened. The 747's control runs go back from the flight deck through the cabin roof, and rerouting them like the 300 redesign was an expensive task. I bet Boeing wished financially they had never done it. The work was done at Wichita. Here are some pics of work in progress

http://www.airlinereporter.com/tag/boeing-747-100-sud/

jrl767

Western 652 was a 707-347C on a late evening run LAX-SFO-SEA-ANC in the 1978-1979 timeframe; I flew on N1503W LAX-SFO and N1502W SFO-SEA (going from memory here, will update after I check my logs)

the rest of the story: Dec 78 and Nov 79, both trips on N1503W; N1502W was WA 719 LAX-SEA in Nov 80, but that jet was in full passenger config

jrl767

very likely a Lockheed L-1649A "Super Starliner" for TWA (who actually called the type "Jetstream")

Indelaware

Western.

WHBM

Actually not, Lockheed did a sudden late push to get the remaining Connie orders out of the door at Burbank so they could change the line over to Electras, and the last one out, although indeed for TWA, was delivered in March 1958. It was a cancelled Alitalia order (they never took them).

There were later 4-pistons delivered elsewhere.

jlemon

Indeed. And there is a photo of a Western operated Electra combi on airliners.net which was taken at SEA in 1969.

The passenger windows are conspicuously absent on the forward section of the fuselage of this L-188 and N7140C also wears an Alaskan state flag on its tail....which is most likely an indication of where WA operated the aircraft to from Seattle. My vote would be SEA-ANN-JNU-YAK-CDV-ANC....that is, until the CAB in its wisdom took this route away from Western and gave it to Alaska Airlines.

And now back to a nicely chilled "The King's English IPA" brewed and bottled by Greene King in Suffolk, England on a very hot Sunday afternoon....

Track

SABENA certainly operated DC-10 combis to Kigali and Bujumbura in the early 1990s. Overland transport from Dar es Salaam to Bujumbura, for instance, was uncertain and always delayed (often for over a year), and the Tanzanian customs authorities tried to get as much as they could out of shippers, even for diplomatic shipments, so everything went by air from Brussels, where the U.S.government had a transshipment hub. Furniture, food, grand pianos, whole households, even cars arrived in Bujumbura via SABENA.

tonywestsider

Aloha everyone,

I haven't posted on this thread in a long time so it's time to say hello to all the friends here. I hope you are all doing well. I'm going to take quick guesses to the HNL questions:

Japan: TYO (many carriers flew this route in 1966, including BA, JL and PA)
New Zealand: AKL (yes, NZ, or actually TE in 1966 flew DC-8 service) and also PA
Guam: Legacy route flown by PA
Wake Island: Legacy route by PA
Philippines: MNL flown by PH and PA, I think...
Tahiti: PPT flown by PA and UTA
American Samoa: PPG flown by PA
New Caledonia: NOU flown by PA

Routes to POM and other Micronesia airports came later as part of Air Micronesia. TPE service came later with CI nonstop service. Service to Port Moresby by Air Niuguini came later in the 1970s.