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Old Timer's Airline Quiz and Discussion.

Old Timer's Airline Quiz and Discussion.

Old Mar 26, 2014, 9:18 am
  #4576  
 
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Originally Posted by jlemon
Yep, I thought about that....and besides Alaska Air, there was Aloha, Hawaiian, Pacific Northern and Wien Consolidated, all of which definitely were not trunk operators back then. Quite frankly, I'm not sure how the CAB classified these smaller jet operators.
I believe they were separately categorised to the Trunk carriers and the Local Service carriers, which groupings were not intended to embrace all airlines. The Local Service definition implied some measure of government financial support for some of their operations, which was the basis on which the intended purchase of the BAC One-Eleven by a couple of them was challenged when they were in receipt of US government funds (how Mohawk got away with it is a long story).

There also seems to have been an issue that allowed Local Service carriers to merge up, and Trunk carriers to merge as well, but one class couldn't merge with the other before deregulation.

I think Wien Consolidated was still two separate carriers in 1967, Wien Alaska and Northern Consolidated.

BONUS Question. Which Trunk carriers of the 1960s are missing from jrl's list above ? And why ?
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Old Mar 26, 2014, 9:27 am
  #4577  
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Pan Am had no CONUS operations (but they may have been categorized as a U.S. flag carrier for international operations rather than a trunk carrier)

Capital was merged into United ~1961
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Old Mar 26, 2014, 9:29 am
  #4578  
 
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There's one more .......
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Old Mar 26, 2014, 11:15 am
  #4579  
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I recall an air carrier that was acquired by Delta....

Chicago & Southern Air Lines
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Old Mar 26, 2014, 11:40 am
  #4580  
 
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Originally Posted by jlemon
I recall an air carrier that was acquired by Delta....

Chicago & Southern Air Lines
Indeed. However, it was acquired in 1953.

The C&S route structure, coming south from Chicago and from Detroit, was what got DL established in the midwest, and was the initial focus of what much later became the DL Cincinnati hub, as well as the oddball routes from New Orleans across the Caribbean we have discussed before.
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Old Mar 26, 2014, 12:45 pm
  #4581  
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What an enjoyable and educational series of posts. Thanks, gang!

As to other trunk carriers operating during the 1960s, how about Capital Airlines?
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Old Mar 26, 2014, 2:30 pm
  #4582  
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Originally Posted by WHBM
Indeed. However, it was acquired in 1953.

The C&S route structure, coming south from Chicago and from Detroit, was what got DL established in the midwest, and was the initial focus of what much later became the DL Cincinnati hub, as well as the oddball routes from New Orleans across the Caribbean we have discussed before.
Ah yes, "The Caribbean Comet" operated by Chicago & Southern Air Lines. In 1950, the routing for this daily flight was Chicago-St. Louis-Memphis-New Orleans-Havana-Kingston-Caracas. I believe either a DC-4 or DC-6 was used for the flight at this time. It then appears the Douglas equipment may have been subsequently replaced with a Constellation by C&S.

Then along came Delta's acquisition of C&S and for a couple of years the combined air carrier was known as "Delta-C&S Air Lines". However, that name did not last and the carrier once again became known as Delta Air Lines.

In 1954, Delta was flying a Constellation on the same Chicago to Caracas route although Montego Bay had replaced Kingston as a stop on the service. Havana was still served at this time.

And by 1962, as we have previously discussed, Delta was operating a Convair 880 on this Caribbean service although the routing had been changed to San Francisco-Dallas-New Orleans-Montego Bay-Caracas. Havana was not served for obvious reasons although this destination was still listed in the Delta system timetable at the time with the following note: "Service Temporarily Suspended".

Last edited by jlemon; Mar 26, 2014 at 2:40 pm
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Old Mar 26, 2014, 3:02 pm
  #4583  
 
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Originally Posted by Seat 2A
As to other trunk carriers operating during the 1960s, how about Capital Airlines?
Indeed they were just vanishing at the start of the decade. But unfortunately, jrl just beat you to it with this one a few posts before. There's still one of the 13 CAB official Trunk Carriers that were around throughout the 1960s to go.
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Old Mar 26, 2014, 3:42 pm
  #4584  
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Originally Posted by WHBM
Indeed they were just vanishing at the start of the decade. But unfortunately, jrl just beat you to it with this one a few posts before. There's still one of the 13 CAB official Trunk Carriers that were around throughout the 1960s to go.
Hmmmm......well, I can think of only one likely suspect. They were not all that big....but they did operate DC-8s, including the stretched Super DC-8-61 and flew to San Juan from New York and Washington, D.C. as well as internationally in the Caribbean. And I think they may have operated the B727-100QC as well:

Trans Caribbean Airways, which was acquired by American in the early 70s.
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Old Mar 26, 2014, 3:51 pm
  #4585  
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Originally Posted by jlemon
Trans Caribbean Airways, which was acquired by American in the early 70s. They did operate DC-8s, including the stretched Super DC-8-61 and flew to San Juan from New York and Washington, D.C. as well as internationally in the Caribbean. And I think they may have operated the B727-100QC as well
I believe they operated both the 727-100 and -200.
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Old Mar 26, 2014, 3:57 pm
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Originally Posted by jlemon
Trans Caribbean Airways, which was acquired by American in the early 70s.
Yes, that was the 13th official trunk carrier. Well done JL. TCA only had a few aircraft, DC8s principally, and their only significant route was New York to San Juan. However they had sufficient spare capacity to also do transatlantic charters, principally for the US military to Germany, where they would make refuelling stops at Prestwick in Scotland, but also did some commercial work as well, generally tying together any empty legs of these flights, which led to their DC8s turning up at London Gatwick in the summertime as well.

* - why did TCA not show in the initial list ? Because they had no routes in the continental USA (same as Pan Am)

It's a surprise that Panagra never made the cut for being a Trunk carrier, but the CAB seems to have had a long-running issue with them. Of course, although they were a wholly US airline and their aircraft were a constant sight at JFK and Miami, they had no route licences that even touched the US (unlike TCA), being flown on an interchange by Pan Am and National crews north of Panama.

Meanwhile, regarding the various local carriers of the 1960s merging up, here's an interesting 2007 article I found about this recently, which includes having found a whole string of illustrations of aircraft in the various hybrid liveries you get with such mergers. It touches on a number of the mergers we covered above.

http://www.aca-assoc.com/resources/Merger_Mania.pdf

Last edited by WHBM; Mar 26, 2014 at 5:29 pm Reason: missed the reason bit out
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Old Mar 26, 2014, 5:24 pm
  #4587  
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Originally Posted by WHBM
Let's have a guess here.

The Detroit flight is possibly Eastern. Their DC8s have probably pretty much gone by this time, so let's go for a 727-200.

For the others, I'll go for British Airways for the whole lot, with flights operating through from London. This is the time of transition from the 707 to the 747-100 on these routes. Why not go for a 747 on the Eastern Caribbean flights to Barbados and to Antigua (which likely continued to Barbados) and 707s to the Bahamas.
24. You are correct with regard to the airlines on four out of the five aforementioned weekly routes, with Eastern operating one of the routes and British Airways operating the other three. Here are the scheds.....

EA 803: ORD-DTW-BDA
Op: Sundays only
Equip: B727-100

BA 250: POS-BGI-BDA-LHR
Op: Wednesdays only
Equip: B707

BA 240: MEX-FPO-BDA-LHR
Op: Thursdays only
Equip: B707

BA 240: MEX-NAS-BDA-LHR
Op: Tuesdays only
Equip: B707

BTW, BA was also operating daily Vickers VC-10 service at this time in 1976 between Bermuda and New York. Here's the eastbound sched....

BA 580: Dep. JFK 2:45pm, Arr. BDA 5:45pm
Op: Daily
Equip: V10

The VC-10 then turned around and flew back to New York as BA 581 departing BDA at 6:50pm and arriving JFK at 8:00pm. In competition, Eastern was operating daily round trip JFK-BDA service with a B727-100 as well as a Sunday only round trip also with a B727-100. And American was competing on the JFK-BDA route as well with a daily B747-100 round trip.

Just think: over to Bermuda on a BA VC-10 and then back to New York on an AA B747 in first class, of course, on both flights! Sounds like a good plan to me!

Last edited by jlemon; Mar 26, 2014 at 5:43 pm
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Old Mar 26, 2014, 5:30 pm
  #4588  
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Originally Posted by miniliq
To WHBM's reply, I'll add an Air Canada (AC) DC-8 from ANU, with a routing POS-BGI-ANU-BDA-YMX.
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24. Air Canada with DC-8 nonstop service from Antigua to Bermuda is correct! AC 955 operated on Saturdays only on the routing you have described.
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Old Mar 27, 2014, 1:26 am
  #4589  
 
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Questions concerning old flights

Good morning from Berlin, everyone. I am trying to complete a listing of my first few flights and was wondering, if anyone could help me with this, please. I have already tried all kinds of internet researches to no avail, unfortunately. Here are my questions:

1) 1986-08-25 - PR 107 - SFO-HNL-MNL - what were the dep/arr times for the whole routing?

2) 1986-09-01 - NW 4 - MNL-NRT, left MNL at 9.35am - what was the arr time? ANSWERED

3) 1986-09-01 - NW 28 - NRT-SFO, left NRT at 8.30pm - what was the arr time? ANSWERED

4) 1988-08-22 - UA 26 - SFO-JFK - left SFO at 8.40am - what was the arr time?

5) 1988-08-23 - RJ 262 - JFK-AMS - left JFK at 10.30pm - what wa the arr time?

6) 1989-12-25 - NW 57 - FRA-BOS - left FRA at 12.05pm - what was the arr time?

7) 1990-06-10 - TA 110 - BZE-MSY - what were the arr/dep times? ANSWERED

I am not looking for the actual but for the scheduled times.

Thank you all very much for your efforts!

Last edited by Schneestarre; Mar 27, 2014 at 7:45 am
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Old Mar 27, 2014, 4:42 am
  #4590  
 
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Hello Schneestarre

We've got various bits and pieces of old timetables amongst ourselves, so looking at what I've got here.

7) 1990-06-10 - TA 110 - BZE-MSY - what were the arr/dep times?

10 June 1990 (Sunday), from my ABC World Airways Guide.

TACA International TA110, Boeing 737-200 economy class only. Scheduled San Salvador dep 0840 Belize arr 0930 dep 0950 New Orleans arr 1300 ops Tue Thu Sat Sun.

2) 1986-09-01 - NW 4 - MNL-NRT, left MNL at 9.35am - what was the arr time?

Northwest NW4, Boeing 747. Scheduled Manila dep 0850 Tokyo arr 1355 daily.
(not the departure time you have but this was a few months later)

3) 1986-09-01 - NW 28 - NRT-SFO, left NRT at 8.30pm - what was the arr time?

Northwest NW28, Boeing 747. Scheduled Tokyo dep 2030 San Francisco arr 1335 daily.

.... over to the rest of you for the others.
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