WHBM

Quite so, Mini. I first noticed Chkalov because there is a Metro station named after him in St Petersburg, and apparently one on the Moscow Metro as well (Soviet Metros, a bit like the one in Paris, have a habit of naming stations after prominent personalities as much as the neighbourhood), and there are various aviation artefacts around the station. The Soviets regarded prominent pilots as heros, the all time pinnacle being Yuri Gagarin, of course. Then I went to the Monino museum and they have a whole display all about Chkalov's pioneer polar flight.

It was a little confusing because the display just said that, headed for San Francisco, he landed short in Vancouver, without qualification, and the Russian cartographer who drew the accompanying map had actually marked up the Vancouver in Canada as the landing point, being unaware of the name repetition. But the best bit is they have a duplicate of the large brass plaque that Chkalov had carried with him, as centrepiece of the display. It was equally in Russian and English, and in typical 1930s Soviet style it boldly reads :

"Greetings from the peasants and workers of the Soviet Union to the peasants and workers of the United States of America".

Now I don't know how many peasants there were in Vancouver WA at this time to receive it, but it must have caused a wry smile. I wonder if it's in an aviation museum somewhere in the Pacific Northwest - it really should be in the Boeing Museum of Flight in Seattle.

I've probably written too much about this museum, but just some last moments, from arriving there on my first visit. It has the most unlikely approach from the Monino train station, absolutely unsigned, just straight past the guardhouse at the entrance to the Russian Air Force base, where the guards show no interest at all in who is walking in and out, then through a military housing project, and on into the forest up a trail. A fork in the trail, and you suddenly come to the museum building at the edge of the woods. Where, apart from a small group of Dutch enthusiasts, we were the only visitors. Which didn't stop there being an admin staff of about six on duty at the front.

Now you always had to arrange visits to Monino advance, send passport numbers by fax, etc, and on arrival this is all in a file waiting for you. This was then handled in the standard Russian bureaucratic manner you find everywhere, from immigration at the airport onwards. A whole series of papers were assembled from various points on the counter between us, slowly, with concentration, no eye contact, and in complete silence. Your heart starts to sink at this point. The papers started to be moved around. Suddenly the universal tool of the Russian clerk was snatched up - the rubber stamp. Whack ! Whack ! Whack ! it went, across all the relevant papers; the more important ones were solemnly initialled as well. If your documents are stamped, you have made it. You know never to come between a mama bear and her cubs ? Likewise never come between a Russian official and their rubber stamps. However, not quite done yet, because one was then handed across to the cashier in the next chair to pay the admission, and the whole stamping rigmarole was eventually repeated. As in all museums, "foreigners" pay about 5 to 10 times what Russian citizens do.

I was then asked, through interpretation, if I wanted an “English language” guidebook to the aircraft exhibits at the museum. Well of course. One secretary disappeared down a corridor, and eventually returned, slowly, with a stooping older gentleman, probably aged well over 70, with such a guidebook in his hand. It became apparent that he was the author, who had written and self-published it, fully in English, and was there just to sell it and maybe give him a bit of retirement income. He looked me up and down to determine a price, which was quoted at that time in US dollars (this doesn't happen any more). Well, that was fine. He smiled, took out a traditional ink pen, opened the cover and signed it boldly across two pages, supposedly in English. The following conversation then took place:

Old gentleman : “And are you pilot ?”.
Me : “Well, yes, actually”.
OG : “What type ?”
Me : “Piper and Cessna”.
OG : “Ah, I see”.
Me : “Are you a pilot too ?”
OG : “Well, um, yes”
Me : “And on what type ?
OG : “Oh, I was Yak factory Chief Test Pilot”.

Bit of a humbling moment ..... !

WHBM

Havana indeed, JL, in July 1962 according to my Tu114 book here. It was quite a trial, the initial service from Moscow on the Tu114 refuelled in north-west Africa, but each African country in turn that was used instantly had extreme diplomatic pressure applied by the US, this was all happening just three months before the Cuban crisis. I believe they worked through three or four stopover points in North Africa, each lasted for just a few flights before being terminated. Tupolev then did a redesign of the Tu114 with extra fuel tanks, and the aircraft then routed north from Moscow to Murmansk, up on the Arctic Ocean near the Norwegian border, and then fully non-stop and without any land crossing all the way to Havana. That's over 5,300 miles, a long way for a prop aircraft.

jrl767

less that half that distance (approx 2400 miles, VNY-HNL and McClellan AFB (Sacramento)-Andrews AFB) in a C-130E, cruising at approx 300 kt, took approx 8+45 ... even with the higher cruise speed of the swept-wing Tu-114 I would imagine that was close to a 15-hr journey

jlemon

Most interesting! I think that in order to attain the nonstop capability from Murmansk to Havana and back involved some rather dramatic changes which then resulted in the aircraft being designated the Tu114D. It's my understanding that fifteen auxiliary fuel tanks were installed and the passengers carrying capacity was reduced to 60 seats from the normal one class config of around 170 to 200 seats......

I also believe the normal cruising speed for the big Tupolev propjet was around Mach 0.71 or about 540 miles per hour.....which translates to just under ten hours of flight time for a 5,300 mile stage length if winds aloft were not a factor. Indeed, that is a long way for a prop driven aircraft that had a wing sweep comparable to a Boeing 707.....

So here's a bonus question: what Asian air carrier was involved in joint Tu114 operations with Aeroflot?

And now.......to the lawnmower!

Seat 2A

I think I know this one because I'm pretty sure I have a postcard of this aircraft - a TU-114 operated jointly with Japan Air Lines. The aircraft wore Aeroflot's livery with small JAL titles. It sure would've been nice to have seen the -114 in JAL's 1960s livery!

Finally, I'm going away for awhile. No - not to jail or some institution but rather to the nether reaches of the park where I've accepted a bid for the next month or so. No internet access (or very rare on a couple of off days) but a lot of different beauty from what we see here in the front country. Here's wishing you all a great rest of the summer!

jlemon

Correct! Aeroflot and Japan Air Lines operated this joint service in the late 60's between Moscow and Tokyo. It is reported that in addition to joint cabin crews from both airlines, a flight crew member from JAL was also part of the arrangement.

Sounds like the intrepid Seat 2A is off to the true wilderness on the other side of Mt. McKinley (elev. 20,320 feet and the highest point in North America) in Denali National Park (perhaps near Wonder Lake?)........

I will always remember my first view of the summit of McKinley as I was in the jump seat on the flight deck of an Era Aviation Convair 580 cruising at 20,000 feet en route from Anchorage to Prudhoe Bay.....what a beautiful sight as the peak was bathed in the glow of sunrise!

Just watch out for the grizzly bears, buddy!

jlemon

Just checking in on a lovely (and tropical) Monday evening here in south Louisiana......

It appears the Old Timers quiz is taking a well deserved summer break.....but I hope this current state of affairs does not stop anyone from posting any questions!

BTW, there are still a number of excellent quiz items that were submitted awhile back by WHBM which remain unanswered in case anyone is interested.

Meantime, I am leisurely (meaning slowly) working on a new set of questions which I shall post in due course sooner or later....probably a bit later, actually, but I'll get there!

Hope everyone is having a lovely summer!

jrl767

just returned to hotel from a conference social at the Museum of Flying adjacent to Santa Monica Airport ... DC-3 on a pole outside, nose of a FedEx 727 (N242FE, ex-Ansett) poking thru the wall, nice mural of the Long Beach airliner family inside ...


not really relevant to "Old-Timers" but I had a great trip out here ...
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/delta...love-a319.html

WHBM

If anyone wants a final shot at those questions above, last chance, otherwise I'll put some answers/comments to them shortly.

Up early on a lovely summer's day here and a quick (well, somewhat) run down to near London City to check things out. The overnight BA A318 from New York touched down in front of me, while more common LCY fare were BAe RJ100s of a couple of operators, and Fokker 50s. I think the 4-engined RJ is now a rarity in the USA, and the Fokker 50 never managed a sale there. There's also a Dornier 328 and a Saab 2000 here, again both rarities in the US now and I think just used as executive aircraft. Anyone like to claim a service these not-too-old old stagers are still running.

jlemon

Hello WHBM!

To the best of my knowledge, there are no longer any BAe 146/Avro RJ aircraft being flown in passenger airline operations anywhere in the U.S. or Canada at present......however, some BAe 146 aircraft have found great success here in the U.S. as converted air tankers operated by private companies in an aerial fire fighting role. The U.S. Forest Service is reportedly very pleased with the aircraft.

As for the Dornier 328 and Saab 2000, they are indeed rarities as I believe none are in current airline operations in the U.S as well.....although Vision Airlines may be operating the odd Dornier 328 turboprop in sched ops. And there just might be a couple being used up in Canada (paging Wally Bird). BTW, there is a privately owned Dornier 328 JET which is used as a corporate airplane based right here at the LFT airport. As for the Saab 2000, I do not think any made into airline ops. here in the U.S. although ProAir was planning to operate the type in feeder services in conjunction with their B737 sched. services.....that is, before this new start up folded its tent due to a lack of money.

Looking forward to your answers, sir, if there are no takers!

WHBM

As promised, some unanswered answers from the Russian questions of a while ago.

6. Why were Soviet Aeroflot crews not normally seen in hotels at western destinations ? What was unusual about their food arrangements when in these cities ?

They were not accommodated in regular hotels, but in special wings of the Soviet Embassy compound. They were picked up at the airport crew room by a special bus and taken directly to and fro. Once there, a typically Soviet-era psychology initiative ran the whole place on Moscow Time, including all meals, so they got breakfast when it was 08.00 in Moscow, lunch when it was 13.00 there, etc, regardless of local time or whether it was daylight or not outside.


9. What was the marketing expression used by British Airways about their route from London through Moscow to Tokyo ?

This was “Russiaway to Japan”. It appeared when the BOAC 707 route opened in 1971. By 1980 they were still allowed just the initial two services each way per week, and only on 707s.

14. In 1956 General Secretary Kruschev visited London. What was novel about the aircraft used by the support team (he didn't trust it and came by warship).

This was the completely unannounced first view in The West of the Tupolev 104 jet. There were several such flights in and out connected with the trip, and at one stage there were three Tu104s on the apron at Heathrow together. Note these were the only civil jets in service in the world at the time. Here's not just photos but a video of the trip (which included a hop up to Manchester in a BEA Viscount as well).

http://www.britishpathe.com/video/bu...-tu-104-jet-ai

18………... still waiting for that sole widebody operator into Moscow in 1980.

The first widebody was ………. AirFrance, with an Airbus A300. They ran to Moscow daily, five times a week with a 727-200, and twice weekly with an A300. The A300 seems to have been a bit of showmanship by the country that built it – which many years later stood them in good stead !

Bear in mind this is August 1980 – the Olympics are in full swing in Moscow, and there were probably more visitors from overseas than ever before.


19. Which international destination has the most Aeroflot service from Moscow, with three daily flights.

It was Berlin Schonefeld, with three daily Tu154.


20. Which “free world” airline had the most departures from Moscow, 14 a week ?

This was Japan Air Lines, operating with DC8-62s from Tokyo through to various western European points. They were limited to one flight each way a day, so a daily flight to Tokyo, while going the other way they fanned out to various European points, each just once or twice a week. The bulk of the “fast” service from Europe to Japan at this time was still with 747s through Anchorage.


21. And following on, which foreign airline had the most departures from Moscow, 6 a day, plus ones from other Soviet points ?

This was Interflug, the German GDR airline. Mainly to Berlin Schonefeld, plus odd ones to Dresden and Leipzig. They also operated from Leningrad and Kiev, so quite an operation, although mainly with little Tu134s.

22. How many flights a week in 1980 Moscow to Havana ?

Nine a week. There was no Cubana service to Moscow (although there was to Prague).

23. How many flights a week in 1980 Moscow to New York ?

Trick question. Answer is zero. Aeroflot only served Montreal in 1980, nowhere in the USA. The 1980 Olympics boycott had spilled over into scheduled air service.


- Last one -

26. In March 2008 the very last Tupolev 154 schedule to the UK was in its final weeks, just a once-weekly schedule. Which Russian airline, and what route ? And which TWO travellers (of course) had contrived to be on board in those final weeks, one travelling from the start point through to Cleveland, Ohio, all in one day, and by what overall routing (and the other sensibly stopping in the UK) ?

Ah, well, among other passengers on this last Tupolev 154 were, inevitably, the previously-mentioned WHBM and Mrs WHBM . The airline was Rossiya and the route was St Petersburg to London Gatwick. The old Leningrad Directorate of Aeroflot had been privatised after perestroika as Pulkovo Airlines, and later merged with the old Russian State VIP operator as Rossiya.

How did I get to Cleveland OH ? Well, started in an icy St Petersburg at 6 am, drove out to the airport, looked at the aircraft outside – Boeing, Boeing, uh-oh, then ..... a Tu154. Good. Boarded it, and flew to London Gatwick. Put Mrs W in a taxi home with much of my luggage. Met colleague who was now coming with me, who had brought in another suitcase I had prepacked and left at the office. In those days Northwest were still running their Detroit service from Gatwick, so checked in, and a couple of hours later we were off on an A330. Over to Detroit, down to the rental car desk as there was no sensible connection to Cleveland, off down the I-75 to Toledo, round the corner onto the I-90 as it was getting dark, and finally into the Sheraton in suburban Cleveland. Checked in, went down for a late dinner where we were the last customers. Looked around. It's a long way from 6 am in St Petersburg !

jlemon

Many thanks, WHBM!

And here's a bonus quiz item......

Identify an airline in Canada that is currently operating the Dornier 328 turboprop. Also provide a route example.

BTW, just got an interesting e-mail from an old buddy who is working today. He is flying in command of a B757-222 en route from JFK to LAX up in the Friendly Skies of United Airlines and thought he'd send me a weather report over northern Arizona......sounds like a nice day out west!

And speaking of weather......there's something swirling around in the southern Gulf of Mexico this morning and we are watching it with more than passing interest......

WHBM

Really Wally's territory, but I believe that Central Mountain Air, a Western Canadian commuter operator, runs them from Edmonton northwards to places like Fort Nelson and Fort St John with a couple. Long ago, these were routes of Canadian Pacific DC3s, and a little later Pacific Western Convair turboprops.

Meanwhile, only this morning, when out running down past London City, where the Dorniers of several operators are still quite regular, in came one from Edinburgh, with its distinctive propeller howl as it pulled up and then taxied in; nowadays these are in an anonymous white livery and operate smaller routes for Cityjet here, but this operation is all that remains of the old Suckling Airways/Scot Airways operation here, for many years a London City institution, and I must have made very many trips with them. The airline was started and always run by Roy Suckling, an ex-flying club instructor, and his lawyer wife Merlyn, the latter especially determined to run a class act, and very much succeeded. Roy unfortunately died a few years ago, and although Merlyn carried on for a while the heart had gone from the business, and eventually it was sold. Goodness, here's a Trip Report from someone familiar over 10 years ago, which is a bit of an "Old Airlines" tour-de-force in its own right as two of the three airlines no longer exist; Scot Airways is trip 2. Shortly after this was written Scot took me and Mrs WHBM on our honeymoon to Edinburgh. You always have a soft spot for such a carrier, don't you ?

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/trip-...uite-long.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suckling_Airways

jlemon

Correct! I believe Central Mountain Air (9M) has two Dornier 328 turboprops. This regional (which also operates B1900Ds and DHC-8-300s) is based in Smithers, British Columbia which is located off the beaten path in northern B.C. Here's a sched example....

9M 792: Fort Nelson (YYE) - Fort St. John (YXJ) - Edmonton (YEG) - Calgary (YYC)
Op: Daily except Saturdays (I think)
Equip: D38

BTW, Fort Nelson and Fort St. John as well as some other small communities in western Canada also had Boeing 737 jet service with the aircraft featuring an all coach class cabin back in the day courtesy of CP Air. Here are some sched examples from 1976.....

CP 20: Whitehorse (YXY) - Fort Nelson (YYE) - Fort St. John (YXJ) - Prince George (YXS) - Vancouver (YVR)
Op: Fridays only
Equip: 737

CP 22: Whitehorse (YXY) - Watson Lake (YQH) - Fort Nelson (YYE) - Fort St. John (YXJ) - Vancouver (YVR)
Op: Tuesdays, Wednesdays and Sundays only
Equip: 737

CP 24: Whitehorse (YXY) - Watson Lake (YQH) - Fort Nelson (YYE) - Fort St. John (YXJ) - Prince George (YXS) - Vancouver (YVR)
Op: Mondays, Thursdays and Saturdays only
Equip: 737

CP 28: Fort St. John (YXJ) - Prince George (YXS) - Vancouver (YVR)
Op: Tuesdays, Wednesdays and Sundays only
Equip: 737

CP 32: Whitehorse (YXY) - Fort St. John (YXJ) - Grande Prairie (YQU) - Edmonton (YEG)
Op: Daily
Equip: 737

CP 40: Vancouver (YVR) - Prince George (YXS) - Fort St. John (YXJ) - Grande Prairie (YQU) - Edmonton (YEG)
Op: Daily except Sundays
Equip: 737

CP 41: Edmonton (YEG) - Grande Prairie (YQU) - Fort St. John (YXJ) - Prince George (YXS) - Vancouver (YVR)
Op: Daily except Sundays
Equip: 737

jrl767

not really a quiz item, since I don't know the answer ...

Sun 11 Aug approx 1300EDT I was on the new observation deck at the DL SkyClub at JFK T4; watched a bright red Turbo Beaver (or perhaps Turbo Otter) with floats land on 22L, cross 22R, and then taxi around the south side of the airport ... my flight left at 1500, and I didn't see it as we taxied out for departure on 13R; I haven't been able to find anything on FlightAware as to the operator or origin/destination