Go Back  FlyerTalk Forums > Travel&Dining > TravelBuzz
Reload this Page >

Old Timer's Airline Quiz and Discussion

Old Timer's Airline Quiz and Discussion

Old Jul 29, 13, 4:15 pm
  #3316  
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: London, England.
Programs: BA
Posts: 7,857
Originally Posted by jlemon View Post
7. What is notable about the production quantities of the supersonic Tupolev 144 when compared to Concorde ?

Well, I've been puzzling over this quiz item for awhile now....so it's time to venture forth with some type of answer.

I believe Tupolev built one prototype of the Tu-144 followed by sixteen production models.

The Concorde, on the other hand, saw a total of 20 examples built if my memory serves me correctly. However, of this 20, I believe only fourteen were destined for airline use by BA and AF...... ......
Well, production quantities were exactly the same - four prototypes and 16 production aircraft, a total of 20. Coincidence or what ? Both were built across two factories as well, although whereas all Concorde types were built very equally in Bristol-Filton and Toulouse, the Tu144 prototypes were all built at Factory 156 at Moscow-Lefortove, and trucked to Zhukovsky (which is, inevitably for this thread, near Monino) for their test flights, while the production aircraft were all built at Factory 64 at Voronezh, in mid-south Russia.

The Tu144, the First Supersonic Airliner In The World, first flight 31 December 1968 (two months before Concorde on 2 March 1969) had four prototypes. Two flew (CCCP-68001 and 77101), the other two were used in various initial ground tests at Zhukovsky; one was destroyed in a pressurisation test that didn't go to plan, the other then had to take over, presumably somewhat more carefully. Regarding the production aircraft, a few are preserved, while what happened to a number is unknown; there are rumoured to be a couple still secreted in hangars at Zhukovsky or Voronezh. I did hear that one had turned up on e-Bay a while ago, but was never deliverd. One was reinstated and did a series of test flights for NASA in 1996-8; contrary to some stories, it never left Russia while doing these.
WHBM is offline  
Old Jul 29, 13, 4:50 pm
  #3317  
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: LFT
Programs: No longer lowly AA Gold, lots of AA, AS & DL miles & BA Avios, former CO Platinum Elite (sigh...)
Posts: 8,792
Excellent information as always from WHBM.....

I believe the Tu-144LL used by NASA for high speed flight research actually had the U.S. flag on the tail of the SST in addition to the Russian flag. I also think these research flights conducted by the Russian SST marked the last use of the Tu-144.

As for the Tu-144 that apparently turned up on e-Bay, it is reported that a Texas businessman offered $11 million for the aircraft.....but it was never delivered. Details are a bit hazy concerning this alleged transaction......
jlemon is offline  
Old Jul 29, 13, 9:54 pm
  #3318  
Original Poster
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: East Ester, Alaska
Programs: Alaska Airlines Million Miler, United Airlines Million Miler, Wyndham Rewards Diamond Level
Posts: 9,671
Originally Posted by WHBM View Post
Well, production quantities were exactly the same - four prototypes and 16 production aircraft, a total of 20. Coincidence or what ? Both were built across two factories as well, although whereas all Concorde types were built very equally in Bristol-Filton and Toulouse, the Tu144 prototypes were all built at Factory 156 at Moscow-Lefortove, and trucked to Zhukovsky (which is, inevitably for this thread, near Monino) for their test flights, while the production aircraft were all built at Factory 64 at Voronezh, in mid-south Russia.

The Tu144, the First Supersonic Airliner In The World, first flight 31 December 1968 (two months before Concorde on 2 March 1969) had four prototypes. Two flew (CCCP-68001 and 77101), the other two were used in various initial ground tests at Zhukovsky; one was destroyed in a pressurisation test that didn't go to plan, the other then had to take over, presumably somewhat more carefully. Regarding the production aircraft, a few are preserved, while what happened to a number is unknown; there are rumoured to be a couple still secreted in hangars at Zhukovsky or Voronezh. I did hear that one had turned up on e-Bay a while ago, but was never deliverd. One was reinstated and did a series of test flights for NASA in 1996-8; contrary to some stories, it never left Russia while doing these.
I too am enjoying the quality of the information provided here. Thanks, WHBM!
Seat 2A is offline  
Old Jul 30, 13, 8:58 am
  #3319  
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: London, England.
Programs: BA
Posts: 7,857
Originally Posted by Seat 2A View Post
I too am enjoying the quality of the information provided here.
Thank you. Of course, for our member living in Alaska it's all part of national history. Are you aware that there is a Russian movement now to take Alaska back ? Of course, they will be happy to refund the $7m the US paid for the loan of it. How it was governed in 1800 from Moscow is extraordinary, the route was overland by horse to the Pacific, then by sailing ship, messages would take about a year each way, each overland trip was like a Lewis & Clark expedition. Given these geographical challenges, it's no wonder that 150 years later thoughts turned to the Tu144.

There are various Tu144s around Russia still in the open and visible on Google Earth. Here are the two at Zhukovsky

https://maps.google.co.uk/?ll=55.570...10568&t=h&z=17

You will notice that to the left of each is a Tu22 Backfire swing-wing supersonic bomber, a contemporary of the Tu144 and about the same overall size. Tupolev built about 500 of these, of which 200 are reported still in service; it will be apparent that there was a lot of shared design experience between the two, and that actually Tu144 production was small beer in comparison. Concorde's builders had no comparable large supersonic bomber to draw experience from.
WHBM is offline  
Old Jul 31, 13, 8:00 am
  #3320  
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: New Orleans
Programs: UA life gold, UA/CO life Presidents/United Club since 1965; Marriott life titanium, HH diamond
Posts: 596
Originally Posted by WHBM View Post
C'mon Mini, you know St. Petersburg didn't exist in 1980

Well, yes, but I did say LED...
and I'll probably say JFK instead of Idlewild in some upcoming answer.
miniliq is offline  
Old Jul 31, 13, 9:58 am
  #3321  
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: LFT
Programs: No longer lowly AA Gold, lots of AA, AS & DL miles & BA Avios, former CO Platinum Elite (sigh...)
Posts: 8,792
Originally Posted by jlemon View Post

4) Also in the spring of 1981, only one airline was flying nonstop between Miami and Grand Turk. The carrier flew once a week on the route. Name the airline and the equipment it operated on the route. ANSWERED

7) Name the only airline that operated the Hawker Siddeley HS 748 turboprop into New York Newark (EWR).
ANSWERED
Just a couple of quiz items remain unanswered from my latest batch......

Last edited by jlemon; Jul 31, 13 at 2:40 pm
jlemon is offline  
Old Jul 31, 13, 10:42 am
  #3322  
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Dorset, Vermont, USA
Programs: All of them!
Posts: 384
4) 1981 Miami/Grand Turk---Air Florida, using 737 (SAT) only.
cs57 is offline  
Old Jul 31, 13, 12:48 pm
  #3323  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: SEA (the REAL Washington); still teleworking with the other Washington (DCA area)
Programs: DL PM 1.3MM; AS MVPG 75K
Posts: 15,199
Originally Posted by jlemon View Post
Just a couple of quiz items remain unanswered from my latest batch...
7) Name the only airline that operated the Hawker Siddeley HS 748 turboprop into New York Newark (EWR)....
wasn't there an outfit called Air Virginia that operated into SHD/CHO in the late 1970s?
jrl767 is offline  
Old Jul 31, 13, 2:02 pm
  #3324  
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: LFT
Programs: No longer lowly AA Gold, lots of AA, AS & DL miles & BA Avios, former CO Platinum Elite (sigh...)
Posts: 8,792
Originally Posted by cs57 View Post
4) 1981 Miami/Grand Turk---Air Florida, using 737 (SAT) only.
4) Correct! Yep, it was QH with B737-200 service.....
jlemon is offline  
Old Jul 31, 13, 2:33 pm
  #3325  
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: LFT
Programs: No longer lowly AA Gold, lots of AA, AS & DL miles & BA Avios, former CO Platinum Elite (sigh...)
Posts: 8,792
Originally Posted by jrl22 View Post
wasn't there an outfit called Air Virginia that operated into SHD/CHO in the late 1970s?
7) Air Virginia (CE) is correct! Here are a couple of sched examples from their May 1, 1984 timetable.....

CE 1255: ROA-RIC-PHL-EWR
Op: Ex. Sat. & Sun.
Equip: HS7

CE 1257: EWR-PHL-RIC-ROA-LYH
Op: Ex. Sat. & Sun.
Equip: HS7

Air Virginia also operated their HS7 turboprops (which they called the BAe 748) into such airports at BWI, DCA and IAD as an independent air carrier. The airline flew Fairchild Swearingen Metro turboprops as well.

Air Virginia apparently ran into financial trouble and declared bankruptcy. I believe the company also had a name change to AVAir. It appears what was left of the airline was acquired by one of the American Eagle carriers although I think the 748s were gone by this time and thus were not operated by AA Eagle......

Last edited by jlemon; Jul 31, 13 at 2:41 pm Reason: grammar
jlemon is offline  
Old Jul 31, 13, 3:56 pm
  #3326  
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: London, England.
Programs: BA
Posts: 7,857
Just a summary in case anyone wants a remaining shot

1. What was unusual about the baggage handling facilities on the Ilyushin 86 widebody ? Answered. Passengers boarded at a low level and left their baggage at a counter-type facility where porters stacked them in the hold behind. They then walked up internal stairs to the main deck seating. Not only did away with baggage handling in the airport but also with the high steps required for a widebody. There seem to be a lot of issues with such an approach, and certainly in latter years it was given up and arrangements were normal - this courtesy of future-Mrs WHBM who travelled in a Pulkovo IL-86 in 2004 from St Petersburg to Dalaman, Turkey, and was, to some surprise, questioned very closely by myself on arrival on exactly how it all worked ! Myself, I had gone to Dalaman on a 757 from London Gatwick. You can guess which flight I would have preferred.

2. What was the first “Western” jet supplied to Aeroflot ? Answered. July 1992, start of an A310 fleet. The first 10 were new, then a lot of secondhand ones arrived.

3. What was the first scheduled transatlantic destination served by Aeroflot ? still open

4. (For one of our contributors) What was the large Soviet helicopter with two big rotors, like the Chinook but mounted sideways. How many engines did it have ? It still said “Aeroflot” on the side, but what was it really designed to carry ? Answered

5. How many propeller blades did the Tupolev 114 have ? What was unique, for a propeller aircraft, about its wings ? both incorrect about the prop blades, unfortunately. But yes, it was the only significantly swept-wing airliner produced.

6. Why were Soviet Aeroflot crews not normally seen in hotels at western destinations ? What was unusual about their food arrangements when in these cities ? still open


7. What is notable about the production quantities of the supersonic Tupolev 144 when compared to Concorde ? Answered

8. What was the principal supersonic route the Tupolev 144 was operated on ? Answered

9. What was the marketing expression used by British Airways about their route from London through Moscow to Tokyo ? still open


10. What did the letters “CCCP” on Soviet aircraft registrations stand for ? Answered Союз Советских Социалистических Республик, or Soyoz Sovetskiy Soshialistisheskiy Respublik, or Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. It still appears all around Russia on buildings of the era, although when in the airport at Vilnius, Lithuania (ex-Soviet Union, nowadays Lithuania is part of the EU), in the old terminal of classic Soviet 1950s grand stone construction, we noticed that on the classic sculptured stone decoration over the front door they had kept the laurel-leaved surrounds etc, but had actually chiselled off the "CCCP" and replaced it with something else.

A recent book about Russia, by a very prominent British political commentator, states that you still see "CCCP" everywhere in Russia, it stood for "Central Committee of the Communist Party". This causes complete hilarity among visiting English-speaking Russian visitors when I show them !


11. What was the first “private” (non-Aeroflot) Russian carrier of modern times ? Answered

12. What was the Soviet version of the DC3 called ? Answered Even though there were two different answers, PS-84 and Lissunov Li-2, both are correct (a bit like DC3 and C-47).

13. At which European airport did the Soviets build a large aviation fuel store, supplied by tanker coming from Soviet Black Sea ports, which avoided paying for fuel for transatlantic flights by Aeroflot and their friends in hard currency ? Answered

14. In 1956 General Secretary Kruschev visited London. What was novel about the aircraft used by the support team (he didn't trust it and came by warship). still open


15. While we're doing history, who flew from Moscow to near Portland, Oregon, in 1936 ? still open


- These questions from the 1980 summer timetable

16. What are the three principal Moscow airports ? Answered

17. The international airport at Moscow only has one domestic route operated from there, although it has 11 departures a day. Other domestic flights go from the other two airports, which are domestic only. What is this solitary domestic destination ? Answered

18. In 1980, from Moscow, there are a handful of Boeing and Douglas aircraft per day from western operators, along with a daily Trident, from British Airways of course. There is also just one single widebody operator, running twice a week, which is the only widebody flight from the Soviet Union it appears; one BAC One-eleven flight per week, and three Caravelle departures split between two operators. Can you identify any of these foreign airlines? If it helps, they are all the national airline of their countries (knew we had to get a Caravelle in somehow). Part-answered. still waiting for that sole widebody operator into Moscow in 1980.


19. Which international destination has the most Aeroflot service from Moscow, with three daily flights. still open


20. Which “free world” airline had the most departures from Moscow, 14 a week ? still open


21. And following on, which foreign airline had the most departures from Moscow, 6 a day, plus ones from other Soviet points ? still open


22. How many flights a week in 1980 Moscow to Havana ? still open


23. How many flights a week in 1980 Moscow to New York ? still open


24. Aeroflot once-weekly, Moscow-Odessa-Cairo-Aden-Mogadishu-Dar es Salaam. What aircraft type would be employed on such a marathon ? Answered

25. OK, a tough one. There’s a once-weekly Aeroflot Ilyushin 62 from Moscow to Lima, Peru, with four intermediate stops. One of these is Havana. Can you guess even ONE of the others ? If it helps, none have been covered in the questions above. Answered

- Last one -

26. In March 2008 the very last Tupolev 154 schedule to the UK was in its final weeks, just a once-weekly schedule. Which Russian airline, and what route ? And which TWO travellers (of course) had contrived to be on board in those final weeks, one travelling from the start point through to Cleveland, Ohio, all in one day, and by what overall routing (and the other sensibly stopping in the UK) ? still open

Last edited by WHBM; Jul 31, 13 at 4:33 pm
WHBM is offline  
Old Jul 31, 13, 8:12 pm
  #3327  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: SEA (the REAL Washington); still teleworking with the other Washington (DCA area)
Programs: DL PM 1.3MM; AS MVPG 75K
Posts: 15,199
Originally Posted by WHBM View Post
... 3. What was the first scheduled transatlantic destination served by Aeroflot ? still open
Montreal?

Originally Posted by WHBM View Post
... 5. How many propeller blades did the Tupolev 114 have ? both incorrect about the prop blades ...
c'mon, I had the right number PER ENGINE
Originally Posted by jrl22 View Post
A- 8; two counter-rotating four-bladed props ...
... on each of four engines = 32 for the airplane

Originally Posted by WHBM View Post
... 18. In 1980, from Moscow, there ... is also just one single widebody operator, running twice a week, which is the only widebody flight from the Soviet Union it appears ... Part-answered. still waiting for that sole widebody operator into Moscow in 1980.
thinking back to the geopolitical environment of 1980, a southwest Asian carrier seems likely ... possibly Iran Air

Last edited by jrl767; Jul 31, 13 at 9:07 pm
jrl767 is offline  
Old Aug 1, 13, 7:37 am
  #3328  
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: New Orleans
Programs: UA life gold, UA/CO life Presidents/United Club since 1965; Marriott life titanium, HH diamond
Posts: 596
Originally Posted by WHBM View Post

15. While we're doing history, who flew from Moscow to near Portland, Oregon, in 1936 ?
I could only try an answer to this question by doing some research: According to a wikipedia history of the Tupolev ANT-25, the flight occurred in June 1937 (wikipedia date error?) in an attempt at a world record trans-polar flight from Moscow to San Francisco, which ran low on fuel over Eugene, Oregon and diverted to Pearson Field at Vancouver, Washington (just across the Columbia River from Portland). The flight was crewed by pilot Valery Chkalov, co-pilot Georgy Baydukov and navigator A. Belyakov. The article also covers several world record attempts using the very interesting ANT-25.
miniliq is offline  
Old Aug 1, 13, 8:17 am
  #3329  
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: London, England.
Programs: BA
Posts: 7,857
Originally Posted by jrl22 View Post
Montreal?
Sorry, not Montreal [first Aeroflot transatlantic destination].

... thinking back to the geopolitical environment of 1980, a southwest Asian carrier seems likely ... possibly Iran Air
No, not any Asian airline [only widebody to Soviet Union in 1980].

c'mon, I had the right number PER ENGINE
("A- 8; two counter-rotating four-bladed props ......") on each of four engines = 32 for the airplane
Hello jrl, yes, I'm being a bit precise. However the stated counter-rotating engines are quite different, where the two engines rotate in opposite directions. Piper has done a couple of these over time, it gives a marginal advantage in an engine failure. However, what the Tu114 and others have is contra-rotating propellers, two propellers on the front of each engine going in opposite directions.

The Soviets became past masters at this technology. The Tupolev 95 bomber, still in extensive service, came first, it’s effectively a Tu114 with a different fuselage, same powerplants, swept wings, etc. The big Antonov 22 outsize freighter also uses those same Kuznetzov powerplants (that sounds an exotic name until you know that in Russian it means “Smith”, and is the most common Russian surname, just like Smith in the UK, and I believe in the US as well).

Those of you with an aeronautical engineering background may care to think how the propeller pitch control works mechanically on these, twisting the prop blades in opposite pitch and the props in opposite directions. The prop pitch, and power transmitted, have to be kept very much synchronised between the two, but it does permit an enormous amount of power to be handled. Big US 1950s designs, the Constellation and especially the Stratocruiser, had a bad habit of breaking off propeller blades, brought about by trying to transmit too much torque.

The Russian Air Force still have a few An-22s in service (there was one displayed over the May Day parade in Moscow this year), and there is one commercially operated by Antonov off and on which could be seen at odd points around the world in recent times. It found use on some outsize UK military freight charters a couple of years ago, heading out from RAF Brize Norton base eastwards, typically in the middle of the night, when being all quiet it would route eastwards direct across London. I would guess it was up at 15,000-20,000 feet by this time, but it certainly woke me up a couple of times, a unique, pulsating, droning, distant, really eerie noise that lasted for ever as it went into the distance.

Like any propeller, when at speed you can’t really see it, so the best way to understand a contra-rotating prop is to see one start up. Here’s a clip of the Antonov 22 starting all four. Don’t get too cross-eyed now …..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m4VlQv4qq8s

Last edited by WHBM; Aug 1, 13 at 8:30 am
WHBM is offline  
Old Aug 1, 13, 7:21 pm
  #3330  
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: LFT
Programs: No longer lowly AA Gold, lots of AA, AS & DL miles & BA Avios, former CO Platinum Elite (sigh...)
Posts: 8,792
Originally Posted by WHBM View Post



3. What was the first scheduled transatlantic destination served by Aeroflot ? still open
Let's go with Havana. I believe SU initiated this TATL service back around 1963 or 1964. Aircraft type? I'll guess a Tuploev Tu-114.........
jlemon is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search Engine: