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Old Timer's Airline Quiz and Discussion.

Old Timer's Airline Quiz and Discussion.

Old Jul 12, 2020, 5:00 pm
  #19681  
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Originally Posted by WHBM

Do you know, I'd forgotten about the helicopter link. Do we know Braniff didn't use it, it was just a year old at this time. A bit remiss, because if you look at page 9 of the history of this service, you may find a familiar name https://www.webcitation.org/6DuqTdtd...ks_lgw_lhr.pdf
They may well have but did not advertise it. Speaking with some old friends in the oil and gas bidness...er....business who actually transferred between the airports via the Braniff provided service, they recall they went by ground transport. However, they were flying in coach. Perhaps a premium fare customer traveling to Aberdeen from DFW via the Concorde into LHR might have then wound up on the S-61 over to LGW......
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Old Jul 12, 2020, 5:19 pm
  #19682  
 
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Originally Posted by jlemon
They may well have but did not advertise it. Speaking with some old friends in the oil and gas bidness...er....business who actually transferred between the airports via the Braniff provided service, they recall they went by ground transport. However, they were flying in coach. Perhaps a premium fare customer traveling to Aberdeen from DFW via the Concorde into LHR might have then wound up on the S-61 over to LGW......
It actually wasn't that expensive, both cash fare and what they charged airlines. I think a taxi (as opposed to the bus) would have cost more, especially as it would occupy the driver for about 2 hours each way. Despite all this the helicopter service was known for light loads. They didn't cancel because they didn't have sufficient passengers, but did if there was nobody booked either way on a rotation, which happened regularly. There was a special cheap space-available fare for those in the industry, who apparently ended up making much of the load. The truth is very few actually want to transfer between the two. I'm guessing the same might be true between multiple airports in US major cities.
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Old Jul 12, 2020, 5:31 pm
  #19683  
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Originally Posted by WHBM
It actually wasn't that expensive, both cash fare and what they charged airlines. I think a taxi (as opposed to the bus) would have cost more, especially as it would occupy the driver for about 2 hours each way. Despite all this the helicopter service was known for light loads. They didn't cancel because they didn't have sufficient passengers, but did if there was nobody booked either way on a rotation, which happened regularly. There was a special cheap space-available fare for those in the industry, who apparently ended up making much of the load. The truth is very few actually want to transfer between the two. I'm guessing the same might be true between multiple airports in US major cities.
There were quite a few attempts at helicopter airlines here in the U.S. and in most cases it was more of a point to point connecting service with a major airport at one end and a helipad or smaller airport at the other end. Witness the Los Angeles Airways S-61 service between LAX and Disneyland. Meanwhile, my old friends up in B.C. continue to operate Helijet which I think is the sole remaining scheduled helicopter airline in the western hemisphere.

Back to the UK helo op, I do have a question. I've heard the S-61 rotorcraft involved in the shuttle between LHR and LGW were actually owned by BAA, the airport authority, and was wondering if this is actually true.....
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Old Jul 12, 2020, 6:53 pm
  #19684  
 
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Yes, it was complex. BAA actually bought the aircraft and paid for it, but leased it to Airlink, a company jointly owned by BAA, B Cal and BA. Because only BA had the S-61 on their Air Operators Certificate, they were the ones actually responsible for all the compliance. The other parties did the various other tasks. BAA don't even have an AOC of course.

BA found it unprofitable, so later withdrew. B Cal took over operating responsibility but because you must actually have one aircraft of any type on your UK AOC the S-61 had to be sold by BAA to B Cal, in order for them to get it on their own AOC. B Cal would have had to develop all the manuals, chief pilot, and other compliance items.
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Old Jul 12, 2020, 8:58 pm
  #19685  
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Originally Posted by WHBM
Yes, it was complex. BAA actually bought the aircraft and paid for it, but leased it to Airlink, a company jointly owned by BAA, B Cal and BA. Because only BA had the S-61 on their Air Operators Certificate, they were the ones actually responsible for all the compliance. The other parties did the various other tasks. BAA don't even have an AOC of course.

BA found it unprofitable, so later withdrew. B Cal took over operating responsibility but because you must actually have one aircraft of any type on your UK AOC the S-61 had to be sold by BAA to B Cal, in order for them to get it on their own AOC. B Cal would have had to develop all the manuals, chief pilot, and other compliance items.
Good heavens, that must have been a bloody expensive proposition for B Cal. Did they actually do this?

Specifically concerning AOC requirements, I certainly can attest to the cost factors in light of my 30+ years of experience in the Part 135 helicopter operations business with Era, PHI, Evergreen and Bristow and their respective international operations where in many cases a local AOC was mandatory.

BTW, I also distinctly remember the difficulties encountered by BA when they were operating the Boeing Vertol BV-234 (civil "Chinook" model) for oil and gas customers in the North Sea......

Last edited by jlemon; Jul 13, 2020 at 12:02 am Reason: clarification
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Old Jul 13, 2020, 6:04 am
  #19686  
 
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Originally Posted by jlemon
Good heavens, that must have been a bloody expensive proposition for B Cal. Did they actually do this?

Specifically concerning AOC requirements, I certainly can attest to the cost factors in light of my 30+ years of experience in the Part 135 helicopter operations business with Era, PHI, Evergreen and Bristow and their respective international operations where in many cases a local AOC was mandatory.

BTW, I also distinctly remember the difficulties encountered by BA when they were operating the Boeing Vertol BV-234 (civil "Chinook" model) for oil and gas customers in the North Sea......
They certainly would have had to do this, otherwise the aircraft would have never left the ground. In practice, BA would have likely left all the procedures etc behind as part of their dowry when they left the organisation. Both BA and B Cal were doing all this on existing UK CAA AOCs so there would be no real issue with unexpected items, It's not like opening up an operation overseas where you can come into all sorts of peripheral issues, people seeking to make money out of it or string their jobs out, people peeved the locally favoured company didn't get the contract, etc. However, the UK CAA were getting distinctly twitchy in the early 1980s about large helicopters, where they experienced virtually one a year crashing into the ocean, most but not all on oil rig flights.

The CAA never liked the big BV-234 Chinook at all for commercial service, which added to this, they felt from past military experience with its derivatives that it was insufficiently failure-proof, as unfortunately was proven. BA only bought six; in 1981-2. G-BISO came down in the open Atlantic in 1984, remarkably all were rescued https://assets.publishing.service.go...987_G-BISO.pdf . BA, who had also lost two S-61s in the ocean in the early 1980s, came very much under the scrutiny of the CAA, and decided to sell their whole helicopter operation in 1986. Within weeks of doing so, Chinook G-BISP crashed into the Atlantic in somewhat similar circumstances https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_B..._Chinook_crash with the loss of almost all on board, after which they were withdrawn and sold. I don't think they were used for passengers again.

There was a further loss a couple of years later of a military RAF Chinook which was carrying a full load of civilian senior civil servants, after which even the military banned civilian passengers in the aircraft. It had been selected for the job because "it was cheaper" than chartering a passenger aircraft.
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Old Jul 13, 2020, 8:54 am
  #19687  
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Originally Posted by jlemon
33. Ah, the equipment in question was indeed a B737-300 and the second stop was Phoenix.....however, the airline we're looking for wasn't USAir and stops were not made at Indianapolis or San Francisco.

35. American operating an MD-80 is correct.....however, the flight in question did not stop in Dallas/Fort Worth or Bakersfield.

And I sense an impending tap in or two here.....so I shall now adjourn to our outside deck on a beautiful, breezy and quite warm afternoon for a properly chilled beverage from Bavaria.....
33- LGA-XXX-PHX-YYY-SEA on a 733 ... PHX strongly suggests America West (with the final stop being Las Vegas/LAS), but a stop between LGA and PHX is a conundrum ... that said, I seem to recall United running PHX-LAX for awhile, and a 733 from their Dulles/IAD hub to PHX is certainly believable

35- ATL-XXX-YYY-SBA, AA M80 ... if not DFW, certainly Chicago/ORD; if not BFL, most likely Ontario/ONT
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Old Jul 13, 2020, 9:58 am
  #19688  
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Originally Posted by jrl767
33- LGA-XXX-PHX-YYY-SEA on a 733 ... PHX strongly suggests America West (with the final stop being Las Vegas/LAS), but a stop between LGA and PHX is a conundrum ... that said, I seem to recall United running PHX-LAX for awhile, and a 733 from their Dulles/IAD hub to PHX is certainly believable

35- ATL-XXX-YYY-SBA, AA M80 ... if not DFW, certainly Chicago/ORD; if not BFL, most likely Ontario/ONT
33. Nope, it wasn't United and stops were not made at Washington Dulles or Los Angeles. And I see you've also mentioned America West here.....

35. Yep, and here's the sched....

AA 207: Atlanta (ATL) 4:57p - 5:59p Chicago O'Hare (ORD) 6:35p - 8:57p Ontario (ONT) 9:55p - 10:36p Santa Barbara (SBA)
Freq: Daily
Service classes: F/Y
Meal service: Dinner ATL-ORD & ORD-ONT
Equip: MD-80
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Old Jul 13, 2020, 10:05 am
  #19689  
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Originally Posted by WHBM
They certainly would have had to do this, otherwise the aircraft would have never left the ground. In practice, BA would have likely left all the procedures etc behind as part of their dowry when they left the organisation. Both BA and B Cal were doing all this on existing UK CAA AOCs so there would be no real issue with unexpected items, It's not like opening up an operation overseas where you can come into all sorts of peripheral issues, people seeking to make money out of it or string their jobs out, people peeved the locally favoured company didn't get the contract, etc. However, the UK CAA were getting distinctly twitchy in the early 1980s about large helicopters, where they experienced virtually one a year crashing into the ocean, most but not all on oil rig flights.

The CAA never liked the big BV-234 Chinook at all for commercial service, which added to this, they felt from past military experience with its derivatives that it was insufficiently failure-proof, as unfortunately was proven. BA only bought six; in 1981-2. G-BISO came down in the open Atlantic in 1984, remarkably all were rescued https://assets.publishing.service.go...987_G-BISO.pdf . BA, who had also lost two S-61s in the ocean in the early 1980s, came very much under the scrutiny of the CAA, and decided to sell their whole helicopter operation in 1986. Within weeks of doing so, Chinook G-BISP crashed into the Atlantic in somewhat similar circumstances https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_B..._Chinook_crash with the loss of almost all on board, after which they were withdrawn and sold. I don't think they were used for passengers again.

There was a further loss a couple of years later of a military RAF Chinook which was carrying a full load of civilian senior civil servants, after which even the military banned civilian passengers in the aircraft. It had been selected for the job because "it was cheaper" than chartering a passenger aircraft.
Not by any of the supermajor oil companies as the BV-234 was then taken off the list of approved helicopter types for passenger transport by the various oil and gas company aviation departments.

Interestingly, there was one helicopter operation here in the U.S. that used the BV-234 to transport passengers. These rotorcraft were used by the Trump organization for flights between New York City and Atlantic City where Mr. Trump had a casino. I believe this was the only time the BV-234 was used for scheduled passenger flights in an airline type of operation outside of the oil and gas industry.

https://www.chinook-helicopter.com/o...25RA_Trump.jpg

Last edited by jlemon; Jul 13, 2020 at 10:19 am Reason: added photo link
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Old Jul 13, 2020, 12:37 pm
  #19690  
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33- HP was of course the obvious answer, but I was stalling for additional time to dig through the memory bank (well, more accurately, upthread discussions)

earlier this year we spent a looooong time trying to nail down where HP's 733 might have stopped between PHX and LGA (coincidentally, that question also referred to 1989, which was before they had stood up their small Columbus/CMH hub), and we ultimately discovered the answer was Wichita/ICT

so it looks like we have LGA-ICT-PHX-LAS-SEA ... but as usual I have a nagging suspicion that something just ain't right ...
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Old Jul 13, 2020, 2:01 pm
  #19691  
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Originally Posted by jrl767
33- HP was of course the obvious answer, but I was stalling for additional time to dig through the memory bank (well, more accurately, upthread discussions)

earlier this year we spent a looooong time trying to nail down where HP's 733 might have stopped between PHX and LGA (coincidentally, that question also referred to 1989, which was before they had stood up their small Columbus/CMH hub), and we ultimately discovered the answer was Wichita/ICT

so it looks like we have LGA-ICT-PHX-LAS-SEA ... but as usual I have a nagging suspicion that something just ain't right ...
33. Well, you are getting closer, though.....and now all you need to do is correctly guess stops # 1 and # 3 as the America West flight in question did not stop at Wichita or Las Vegas.
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Old Jul 13, 2020, 2:51 pm
  #19692  
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33- further upthread review is leading me to speculate that the first stop was Omaha/OMA, but other than LAS I'm completely at a loss as to any other (doubtless short-lived) HP service to another point between PHX and SEA

we've already eliminated SFO; I'm guessing that they kept away from the other Bay Area airports to reduce exposure to the likes of Alaska, American, Southwest, and United ...the rest of the majors (Delta, Eastern, Northwest, TWA) ran 2x or 3x daily round-trip tags between SEA and Portland/PDX, and similarly I don't think HP had any misconception that they could push into that market

so let's give Sacramento/SMF a shot, with Reno/RNO waiting for the rebound
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Old Jul 13, 2020, 3:11 pm
  #19693  
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Originally Posted by jrl767
33- further upthread review is leading me to speculate that the first stop was Omaha/OMA, but other than LAS I'm completely at a loss as to any other (doubtless short-lived) HP service to another point between PHX and SEA

we've already eliminated SFO; I'm guessing that they kept away from the other Bay Area airports to reduce exposure to the likes of Alaska, American, Southwest, and United ...the rest of the majors (Delta, Eastern, Northwest, TWA) ran 2x or 3x daily round-trip tags between SEA and Portland/PDX, and similarly I don't think HP had any misconception that they could push into that market

so let's give Sacramento/SMF a shot, with Reno/RNO waiting for the rebound
33. The stops we are looking for are Omaha and Reno. Here's the sched....

HP 846: New York LaGuardia (LGA) 7:29a - 9:55a Omaha (OMA) 10:35a - 12:20p Phoenix (PHX) 1:00p - 1:45p Reno (RNO) 2:15p - 3:55p Seattle (SEA)
Freq: Daily
Service classes: F/Y
Meal service: Snack LGA-OMA & OMA-PHX & PHX-RNO & RNO-SEA
Equip: B737-300
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Old Jul 13, 2020, 3:32 pm
  #19694  
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Originally Posted by jlemon

As always, please limit your response to two quiz items per day so that all may participate. And we are looking for decisive and complete answers here. This includes being as specific as possible concerning the aircraft model. Thanks!

27. It's 1985 and you are in Montreal. You've been invited to conduct a business presentation in San Diego and have found a daily direct flight from YUL to SAN which makes two stops en route. Identify the air carrier, both stops and the aircraft. ANSWERED

32. This air carrier announced it would begin a daily shuttle operation in the fall of 1987 flown with mainline jet equipment from San Jose (SJC) to Los Angeles (LAX) with flights operating every hour on the hour from 7:30 am to 8:30 pm. Name the airline. ANSWERED

34. It's 1989. You're in San Francisco and have a meeting to attend in Guatemala City. Ah, here's a daily flight from SFO to GUA which makes two stops en route. You book a seat in first class, of course. Name the airline, both stops and the aircraft. It wasn't Pan Am operating an A300 nor was the aircraft in question a wide body. The first stop was LAX. The second stop wasn't MEX but was made in Central America. The air carrier in question was based in the U.S.

38. In 1992, this airline featured a business class section on a number of its Boeing 737-200 aircraft with a total of 30 business class seats in 2-2 configuration with ample legroom. Other B737-200 aircraft in its fleet were configured with all-economy cabins with 105 or 120 seats at this time. Name the air carrier. ANSWERED
Just two one more to go here.....and all now ANSWERED.

Last edited by jlemon; Jul 19, 2020 at 2:19 pm Reason: answer updates
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Old Jul 13, 2020, 3:36 pm
  #19695  
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Originally Posted by jlemon

BONUS QUESTION: Antilles Air Boats also operated a scheduled passenger fixed wing operation at one point in the Caribbean on behalf of another airline. What was the name of this airline service and what type of aircraft was operated? Hint: the service was operated on behalf of a major air carrier
And I've added a hint for this one.....
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