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Old Timer's Airline Quiz and Discussion

Old Timer's Airline Quiz and Discussion

Old Nov 1, 19, 11:39 am
  #16831  
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Originally Posted by Seat 2A View Post
Dang! YVR! You're pretty good at this question gig! I'm sure I speak for many when I say Thanks! and we look forward to any more you care to serve up!
I am particularly intrigued by how airline terms originate from shipping lines. Simply the name "airline" and "airliner" (instead of ocean liner). Crew rank (captain, steward/stewardess). Galleys (and I imagine cooking was done onboard in the flying boat days and I don't go back far enough to remember what flying must have been like then). Would terms have been different if there was no connection?

As for me, it's time to catch my ride to the ship, so all the best to you all and I'll check back in on November 4th ^
Hope the ship is ready for boarding (or if not, the mini-suite affords you some sort of "lounge" access, and remember you can use Nexus/Global Entry to speed your way through security and U.S. preclearance.
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Old Nov 1, 19, 12:04 pm
  #16832  
 
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Originally Posted by YVR Cockroach View Post
The airline in my question 2 appeared to have operated the very first type of jetliner before it was merged. Part of the reason for the airline's formation was to connect not only far-flung colonies but commercial destinations of the colonies of other empires.
I'll guess UAT.
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Old Nov 1, 19, 12:11 pm
  #16833  
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Originally Posted by kochleffel View Post
I'll guess UAT.
Correct, which merged into UTA and eventually Air France.

When I saw the name Union Aéromaritime de Transport, that was a pretty good clue it had maritime links. Its parent was Chargeurs Réunis which still exists, but as a manufacturer.
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Old Nov 4, 19, 12:45 pm
  #16834  
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Originally Posted by YVR Cockroach View Post
Not sure Maersk line or its predecessors operated scheduled passenger service (I have to look it up), and it doesn't seem have been doing so.when the airline was formed.
I flew a scheduled flight aboard a Maersk 737-500 between Copenhagen and LGW in 2005 - Maersk's last year of passenger operations, I believe.
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Old Nov 4, 19, 12:51 pm
  #16835  
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I think he was referring to the shipping line ...
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Old Nov 4, 19, 4:08 pm
  #16836  
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Originally Posted by jrl767 View Post
I think he was referring to the shipping line ...

Yes. I should have been more precise and stated "what passenger shipping lines also concurrently operated scheduled passenger airline service? Name the airline and shipping line"

Right now, the answers are
Canadian Pacific Air Lines and Canadian Pacific Steamships
BOAC-Cunard and Cunard Eagle, Cunard
UAT, Chargeurs Reunis

If one was to remove "passenger" and "concurrently"
Maersk Air / Maersk could be added

If just "concurrently" alone
...... (hint: another European shipping/airline)


Seat 2A, how did you like doing YVR-LAX in 4 days/3 nts with ~8-9 meals instead of <3 hours and 1 if lucky?
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Old Nov 4, 19, 10:13 pm
  #16837  
 
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Originally Posted by YVR Cockroach View Post
I am particularly intrigued by how airline terms originate from shipping lines. Simply the name "airline" and "airliner" (instead of ocean liner). Crew rank (captain, steward/stewardess). Galleys (and I imagine cooking was done onboard in the flying boat days and I don't go back far enough to remember what flying must have been like then). Would terms have been different if there was no connection?.
A fascinating book which gets into several of these aspects is "Croissants at Croydon", by Jack Bamford, who was, astoundingly, the Air France (and their pioneer predecessors) General Manager at London right from the start of commercial aviation in 1919 through to the early 1960s with Caravelles and even 707s on the Paris flights - and in retirement he even flew on Concorde. But the detail about those absolute pioneer times is fascinating.

Quite why pilot uniforms look like ship officers is described, because that is what a few pioneers decided was the best available to them - lots of surplus after WW1. In open cockpit aircraft days they changed into and out of heavyweight leather suits, Sidcot Suits https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/30016161 that went over the top. They were all (including Bamford himself of course) just out of the military, and brought their traditions with them.
More specifically, I was looking for a steamship company operated the airline as a wholly-owned subsidiary
Quick one for me to add here is Panagra. This was a jointly owned carrier between Pan Am and the Grace shipping line, who were the long-established shipping company from the US to the west coast of South America, and had all the local offices etc there.

And then there were several UK airlines so owned. British United, and later British Caledonian, were principally owned by British & Continental Shipping, who owned several long-established long distance worldwide shipping companies.

Meanwhile all rather busy here, haven't looked at the posts here for some days, am currently in a grossly overpriced hotel in Frankfurt, Germany, where it is trade fair week. Not that we are going to the fair itself, but thank goodness the client is at least shouldering both plane fares and accommodation costs which are at least double compared to normal on a dreary wet (yes, it is) November day. Came over yesterday on the first BA E190 from London City, had one of the longest taxys in ever at Frankfurt, must have been several miles, from the new runway in the NW corner of the airport to the BA stand at the far east end. Did notice that there are still plenty of Lufthansa A340-300s around, itself a somewhat disappearing type nowadays, along with plenty of 747s as well. Meanwhile the airport train station into Frankfurt is closed for a couple of months for some works, and the trains are running from a separate station normally used for long distance trains out on the airport periphery, connected by a special bus. Even the trains themselves are all mixed up, running late, and even last-minute cancelled. For a centre of a supposedly efficient culture it's all somewhat disorganised and poorly signed, and I probably penetrated it all better than others. Back home on the last flight tonight.

I first came through here in 1972, arriving by a Dan-Air BAC One-Eleven on a student charter flight from London Gatwick, even then it was quite a large airport, though the US military base on the south side, which I recall had a fine display on arrival of US charter DC-8s from the likes of World, Transinternational, Capitol, etc, is now all demolished and somewhat abandoned. And that train station right under the terminal, which then was new, whizzed us into the city so efficiently. But not yesterday.

Did I mention that Dan-Air was also always owned by a shipping company ? It was Davies and Newman, hence it's name, long based where shipping companies used to be headquarters right in the City of London, now the wholly financial district. I think they were the only airline with an HQ there. Eventually the airline became the principal operation and the shipping side ran down. They started off in the early 1950s providing charter operations taking changeover ship crews, at a time when so many were British, to various places round the world.

Last edited by WHBM; Nov 4, 19 at 10:26 pm
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Old Nov 5, 19, 1:02 am
  #16838  
 
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Originally Posted by YVR Cockroach View Post
Yes. I should have been more precise and stated "what passenger shipping lines also concurrently operated scheduled passenger airline service? Name the airline and shipping line"

Right now, the answers are
Canadian Pacific Air Lines and Canadian Pacific Steamships
BOAC-Cunard and Cunard Eagle, Cunard
UAT, Chargeurs Reunis

If one was to remove "passenger" and "concurrently"
Maersk Air / Maersk could be added

If just "concurrently" alone
...... (hint: another European shipping/airline)


Seat 2A, how did you like doing YVR-LAX in 4 days/3 nts with ~8-9 meals instead of <3 hours and 1 if lucky?
Not an answer but another shipping and airline combination would be Fred. Olsen Airtransport of Norway.
Their airline operation only carried cargo and continued into the 1990s when they were flying L188 Electras on behalf of one of the major air courier companies (DHL?).
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Old Nov 5, 19, 9:58 am
  #16839  
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Thank for the Panagra and British United/BCal additions. I didn't drill down enough into B&CS to see that it was formed from Union Castle which I was aware of as a shipping line. Did BUA and the passenger ship service of B&CS run concurrently?

I was looking through some old National Geographics (have an old, (poorly) digitised CD set) for old airline ads that could be used for quiz questions but haven't found too many suitable ones yet and saw Panagra ads in the '60s.. I have to admit Panagra is before my time. Also saw Matson line ads for passenger service between the U.S. west coast nd Australia and wonder if its mgmt ever discussed some arrangement with Pan Am.

I looked in DanAir and dismissed counting it as Davis & Newman seemed to be ship brokers rather than operators and didn't seem to be involved with passenger ship service. I also looked into Lloyd Air (provides a hint for the answer I'm still looking for) but see it was named after is founder.

If one wanted to add non-passenger shipping companies who ran scheduled passenger airlines to the list, there are at least two in East Asia (though one of the shipping lines went spectacularly bust a few years ago).
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Old Nov 5, 19, 10:00 am
  #16840  
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Originally Posted by KT550 View Post
Not an answer but another shipping and airline combination would be Fred. Olsen Airtransport of Norway.
Their airline operation only carried cargo and continued into the 1990s when they were flying L188 Electras on behalf of one of the major air courier companies (DHL?).
Thanks for this addition too. I know of the cruise line and see there is a ferry service. I imagine the shipping line ran combined passenger/freight operations and looks like it would have been concurrent with the airline's operations given the date?
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Old Nov 5, 19, 11:18 am
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This time it's Hello from of all places the JAL lounge, the OneWorld partner, at Frankfurt airport, and as there's a JAL flight leaving at much the same time as mine to LCY it's quite busy. On my way back. Tomorrow it's Reading, then down to the West of England. On we go.

There's a pretty classy photo-collection in the entrance lobby here of 1960s JAL aircraft, including a Convair 880. The lounge steward called it a DC8. Now corrected …

I honestly can't say I'm impressed with Frankfurt airport, The airport train station has been closed for a couple of months for upgrading, there's a bus shuttle to an alternative station outside. The signage is very poor. Likewise the overall signage inside the terminals has all the classics of key signs facing blank walls, etc. There's a tracked shuttle transit between the two terminals which I had to use as colleague dropped off the cab first at the other terminal. it seems to have been installed with no regard at all for where its passengers might be heading to/from, or how to find it.

Just in case you think I am whinging, I've done this sort of stuff for a living for a long time.
I didn't drill down enough into B&CS to see that it was formed from Union Castle which I was aware of as a shipping line. Did BUA and the passenger ship service of B&CS run concurrently?
Union Castle was actually the last long distance passenger shipping line to serve the UK, and possibly one of the last in the world, They had the last ever traditional ocean lines (as opposed to cruise ship) built, in Glasgow (inevitably) in 1961 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RMS_Transvaal_Castle . Southampton to points towards South Africa ran well into the late 1970s, and many travelling between the two regarded it as part of their holiday. It shrank over time, eventually it was down to one ship. British United never got services between Britain and South Africa, though they served various other points in Africa.
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Old Nov 5, 19, 11:26 am
  #16842  
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Next round of questions imminent ...

I seem to recall mentioning that I got a Quiz inspiration a couple months ago (maybe as long as a year?) when I noticed, in quick succession and in reverse alphabetical order, a number of license plates where the three letters represented airport designators … some well-known, others less so:
  • BLR
  • BIL
  • BHX
  • BHM
  • BEY
  • BDL
  • AUH
  • ABQ
  • ABJ
The immediate challenge, of course, was to build the itineraries from various historical flight resources.

I'm putting the finishing touches on the story lines, and should have them ready to post later today.
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Old Nov 5, 19, 2:10 pm
  #16843  
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Originally Posted by YVR Cockroach View Post
Seat 2A, how did you like doing YVR-LAX in 4 days/3 nts with ~8-9 meals instead of <3 hours and 1 if lucky?
Prior to this cruise the biggest ship I'd ever ridden upon was the Alaska Marine Highway's 450 passenger MV Columbia. My ship, the Star Princess, could carry 2600 passengers plus a crew of over 1000. Rather amazingly, there are ships out there that can carry twice as many passengers as the Star Princess! This sailing was essentially a re-positioning cruise (They take the ship out of Alaska and relocate it down south for the winter cruises to Mexico & Hawaii. There are no port stops along the way, just a couple of days at sea, so the prices are heavily discounted.) In any event, this certainly was a fancy way to get from Vancouver down to LA! I thoroughly enjoyed my spacious mini-suite and the the view from my balcony. There was no shortage of activities to entertain oneself while at sea and the meals and service were very good indeed.

All that notwithstanding, it didn't take long to establish that I am definitely not a cruise ship person. The ships are too big and there are way too many people around for my tastes. Truth be told, I'd actually prefer a ride on the Alaska ferry. Crazy, I know, but the ferry is like a comfortable pair of old jeans to me in terms of both the ship and my fellow passengers. Don't get me wrong - this cruise was very nice and there was no shortage of entertainment options to stave off boredom (I'm actually happy with a good book and a cold beer on my balcony, thanks!) but the ship was so large that it felt more like being in a big busy hotel (or a Walmart ) much of the time. I had to remind myself that I was actually at sea. But hey, all in all I had a nice time and now that I've done it, I know what its about. From now on however, you're likely to find me on smaller ships. Seeya on the Malaspina! Or perhaps the Queen of the Mississippi...

Last edited by Seat 2A; Nov 5, 19 at 2:16 pm
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Old Nov 5, 19, 2:13 pm
  #16844  
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Originally Posted by jrl767 View Post
I seem to recall mentioning that I got a Quiz inspiration a couple months ago (maybe as long as a year?) when I noticed, in quick succession and in reverse alphabetical order, a number of license plates where the three letters represented airport designators … some well-known, others less so:
  • BLR
  • BIL
  • BHX
  • BHM
  • BEY
  • BDL
  • AUH
  • ABQ
  • ABJ
The immediate challenge, of course, was to build the itineraries from various historical flight resources.

I'm putting the finishing touches on the story lines, and should have them ready to post later today.
YOU GO, J! ^^
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Old Nov 5, 19, 4:35 pm
  #16845  
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Originally Posted by Seat 2A View Post
All that notwithstanding, it didn't take long to establish that I am definitely not a cruise ship person. The ships are too big and there are way too many people around for my tastes. .
I totally understand the preference to avoid big ships. The Star Princess is still the biggest passenger ship I've ever set foot on (also been onboard CV(A)N-65 decades ago and the CMA CGM Libra is as big as one of those Behemoths of the Seas) and it's way bigger than I like. There was a U.K. show with a British comedian boarding one of the ships and the scene of him boarding it was like walking into a food court of a huge mall.

I see various ships doing the Seattle-Alaska run from my house all summer and aren't even tempted to set foot on most of the ones that sail by. Even the "small ships" touted by most on the cruise forum are way too big.

The right size, for me, was a ship designed for 260 pax only carrying 199 between Papeete and Honolulu, and even better yet, the same ship sailing with under 70 pax from Honolulu to Japan. I think you'll like that better.
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