Longest you have seen the seat belt sign be on
Sep 26, 2011, 9:36 pm
#16
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I flew AA 79 today and the seatbelt sign was left on for all 9:20 of it, which qualifies as the longest I've ever had the sign on. In fact, I don't think I've ever had a flight where this happened before. I was in F though so I wasn't surprised that nobody commented when I moved around.
Sep 27, 2011, 7:29 am
#17
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Ridiculous.
Indicates absolutely no consciousness on the part of pilots or flight attendants regarding the presence of passengers who might be interested in respecting and complying with the sign. To get up and go to lav with sign illuminated is still technically a violation of federal law, though unlikely given the circumstances that any fed would see an issue with the passengers, but might have some questions for crew.
Situational awareness, crew communication (CRM), acknowledgement that people with bladders are on the aircraft on the other side of the locked door, etc...
For the sign to have any meaning, it should only be ON when necessary. It is completely unrealistic to expect 250+ people not to have to use the lavatory during a flight that long. Heck alot of them board the airplane and run to the lav from a terminal filled with rest rooms.
So many pilots seem to have the mentality that it needs to be on until cruise, even when no weather on the climb and the angle of attack is not steep.
For the sign to have regulatory and flight safety meaning, it should be illuminated only when it needs to be, ie., as little as possible.
It would not surprise me if some pilots may be afraid of some attorney if a pax gets injured in an enroute turbulence encounter. In court, to be able to say that the sign was on, for some pilots is their safety net.
Non-US carriers seem to have the best practices with the sign. On only for immediate climb and descent, and moderate chop. They realize they are in the business of transporting people, and want to send the appropriate signals that they are aware that they are there because the pax are there. Lost on many US carriers these days.
I do remember while Plat with DL in late 90's that they would release the sign at 10,000 feet through climb if smooth. If they didn't release the sign at 10,000 due to turbulence, the fas also remained seated. Not sure if DL/NW merger has changed this practice, and have not been on DL enough to see if this is the same. My observation also is that Virgin America seems to only illuminate the sign only for moderate chop or greater.
Indicates absolutely no consciousness on the part of pilots or flight attendants regarding the presence of passengers who might be interested in respecting and complying with the sign. To get up and go to lav with sign illuminated is still technically a violation of federal law, though unlikely given the circumstances that any fed would see an issue with the passengers, but might have some questions for crew.
Situational awareness, crew communication (CRM), acknowledgement that people with bladders are on the aircraft on the other side of the locked door, etc...
For the sign to have any meaning, it should only be ON when necessary. It is completely unrealistic to expect 250+ people not to have to use the lavatory during a flight that long. Heck alot of them board the airplane and run to the lav from a terminal filled with rest rooms.
So many pilots seem to have the mentality that it needs to be on until cruise, even when no weather on the climb and the angle of attack is not steep.
For the sign to have regulatory and flight safety meaning, it should be illuminated only when it needs to be, ie., as little as possible.
It would not surprise me if some pilots may be afraid of some attorney if a pax gets injured in an enroute turbulence encounter. In court, to be able to say that the sign was on, for some pilots is their safety net.
Non-US carriers seem to have the best practices with the sign. On only for immediate climb and descent, and moderate chop. They realize they are in the business of transporting people, and want to send the appropriate signals that they are aware that they are there because the pax are there. Lost on many US carriers these days.
I do remember while Plat with DL in late 90's that they would release the sign at 10,000 feet through climb if smooth. If they didn't release the sign at 10,000 due to turbulence, the fas also remained seated. Not sure if DL/NW merger has changed this practice, and have not been on DL enough to see if this is the same. My observation also is that Virgin America seems to only illuminate the sign only for moderate chop or greater.
Last edited by Clipper110A; Sep 27, 2011 at 7:45 am Reason: typo
Sep 27, 2011, 9:37 am
#18
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Ridiculous.
Indicates absolutely no consciousness on the part of pilots or flight attendants regarding the presence of passengers who might be interested in respecting and complying with the sign. To get up and go to lav with sign illuminated is still technically a violation of federal law, though unlikely given the circumstances that any fed would see an issue with the passengers, but might have some questions for crew.
Situational awareness, crew communication (CRM), acknowledgement that people with bladders are on the aircraft on the other side of the locked door, etc...
For the sign to have any meaning, it should only be ON when necessary. It is completely unrealistic to expect 250+ people not to have to use the lavatory during a flight that long. Heck alot of them board the airplane and run to the lav from a terminal filled with rest rooms.
So many pilots seem to have the mentality that it needs to be on until cruise, even when no weather on the climb and the angle of attack is not steep.
For the sign to have regulatory and flight safety meaning, it should be illuminated only when it needs to be, ie., as little as possible.
It would not surprise me if some pilots may be afraid of some attorney if a pax gets injured in an enroute turbulence encounter. In court, to be able to say that the sign was on, for some pilots is their safety net.
Non-US carriers seem to have the best practices with the sign. On only for immediate climb and descent, and moderate chop. They realize they are in the business of transporting people, and want to send the appropriate signals that they are aware that they are there because the pax are there. Lost on many US carriers these days.
I do remember while Plat with DL in late 90's that they would release the sign at 10,000 feet through climb if smooth. If they didn't release the sign at 10,000 due to turbulence, the fas also remained seated. Not sure if DL/NW merger has changed this practice, and have not been on DL enough to see if this is the same. My observation also is that Virgin America seems to only illuminate the sign only for moderate chop or greater.
Indicates absolutely no consciousness on the part of pilots or flight attendants regarding the presence of passengers who might be interested in respecting and complying with the sign. To get up and go to lav with sign illuminated is still technically a violation of federal law, though unlikely given the circumstances that any fed would see an issue with the passengers, but might have some questions for crew.
Situational awareness, crew communication (CRM), acknowledgement that people with bladders are on the aircraft on the other side of the locked door, etc...
For the sign to have any meaning, it should only be ON when necessary. It is completely unrealistic to expect 250+ people not to have to use the lavatory during a flight that long. Heck alot of them board the airplane and run to the lav from a terminal filled with rest rooms.
So many pilots seem to have the mentality that it needs to be on until cruise, even when no weather on the climb and the angle of attack is not steep.
For the sign to have regulatory and flight safety meaning, it should be illuminated only when it needs to be, ie., as little as possible.
It would not surprise me if some pilots may be afraid of some attorney if a pax gets injured in an enroute turbulence encounter. In court, to be able to say that the sign was on, for some pilots is their safety net.
Non-US carriers seem to have the best practices with the sign. On only for immediate climb and descent, and moderate chop. They realize they are in the business of transporting people, and want to send the appropriate signals that they are aware that they are there because the pax are there. Lost on many US carriers these days.
I do remember while Plat with DL in late 90's that they would release the sign at 10,000 feet through climb if smooth. If they didn't release the sign at 10,000 due to turbulence, the fas also remained seated. Not sure if DL/NW merger has changed this practice, and have not been on DL enough to see if this is the same. My observation also is that Virgin America seems to only illuminate the sign only for moderate chop or greater.
Sep 27, 2011, 9:46 am
#19
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Is it technically a law to comply with the sign? I know the direct crew member instruction, but not sure if that permeates to a light bulb in the cabin.
Anyways, I've seen the following scenario play out dozens of times:
- Light is on during landing or has been on for ages'
- Pax asks FA if they can go to the restroom
- FA says the seatbelt sign is on
- Pax says accident is about to occur, need to go to bathroom NOW
- FA says, "I can't legally tell you not to go to the bathroom, but the seatbelt sign is illuminated"
- Pax looks dumbfounded
At this point, if within earshot, I basically will tell the pax, that means just go (go to lav, not on yourself of course)!
In the most extreme cases, I saw this conversation go down recently from a person on a 738 in 3E who had this exact conversation the moment we landed in Miami. We had just gone through 1 hour of severe turbulence to which even FAs weren't permitted by the pilot to stand. In this event, the pilots did announce they were sending the FAs to their seat for the remainder of the flight and that no one was to get up (which they repeated every 10 minutes), "IT IS NOT AN OPTION". In their defense, it was a mad-turbulent last hour (Hurricane Irene was off the coast of the Atlantic).
Anyways, the moment the plane landed, the above conversation ensued, and PAX went to the lav and relieved herself while taxi'ing (she may have even been out of her seat while we were still on the runway about to turn off). It was dire straits for her and she was further perplexed by the FA's statements, but I was in 4B and told her, "that means you should go".
Unique to that flight was the pilots repeated mentions about how getting up was an ABSOLUTE NO-GO, and that the flight attendant didn't stop someone from going to the bathroom while taxi'ing. To me, the fact the pilots were so vocal about the situation makes me now think that unless I hear that sort of announcement directly, I will pay little attention to the seatbelt sign except below 10,000 feet.
Personally, I usually always pee right after I'm instructed to turn off my electronic devices. I turn it all off, pack it up and take it as the last opportunity to drain myself of the plethora of coffee (morning flight) or beer/wine (afternoon/evening flight) I've drank. You never know how long you'll end up sitting on the runway, in a holding pattern or waiting for a gate.
Anyways, I've seen the following scenario play out dozens of times:
- Light is on during landing or has been on for ages'
- Pax asks FA if they can go to the restroom
- FA says the seatbelt sign is on
- Pax says accident is about to occur, need to go to bathroom NOW
- FA says, "I can't legally tell you not to go to the bathroom, but the seatbelt sign is illuminated"
- Pax looks dumbfounded
At this point, if within earshot, I basically will tell the pax, that means just go (go to lav, not on yourself of course)!
In the most extreme cases, I saw this conversation go down recently from a person on a 738 in 3E who had this exact conversation the moment we landed in Miami. We had just gone through 1 hour of severe turbulence to which even FAs weren't permitted by the pilot to stand. In this event, the pilots did announce they were sending the FAs to their seat for the remainder of the flight and that no one was to get up (which they repeated every 10 minutes), "IT IS NOT AN OPTION". In their defense, it was a mad-turbulent last hour (Hurricane Irene was off the coast of the Atlantic).
Anyways, the moment the plane landed, the above conversation ensued, and PAX went to the lav and relieved herself while taxi'ing (she may have even been out of her seat while we were still on the runway about to turn off). It was dire straits for her and she was further perplexed by the FA's statements, but I was in 4B and told her, "that means you should go".
Unique to that flight was the pilots repeated mentions about how getting up was an ABSOLUTE NO-GO, and that the flight attendant didn't stop someone from going to the bathroom while taxi'ing. To me, the fact the pilots were so vocal about the situation makes me now think that unless I hear that sort of announcement directly, I will pay little attention to the seatbelt sign except below 10,000 feet.
Personally, I usually always pee right after I'm instructed to turn off my electronic devices. I turn it all off, pack it up and take it as the last opportunity to drain myself of the plethora of coffee (morning flight) or beer/wine (afternoon/evening flight) I've drank. You never know how long you'll end up sitting on the runway, in a holding pattern or waiting for a gate.
Last edited by BrianV; Sep 27, 2011 at 9:54 am
Sep 27, 2011, 11:25 am
#20
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Per the FAA, the aircraft is Not to be moving on the Tarmac/Runway when a pax is up (currently away from full Internet so don't have the exact FAR), also FAs are to remind pax the seatbelt sign is on (as if they can't see it for themselves) of course we can see that there was an extreme case in this one due to Irene.
one that irks me is when we're still climbing, FAs still in our jumpseats and pax think it's ok to get up. Uh, did you get a personal brief about the climb-out and the potential of turbulence?
Too many times I have seen pax stumble and fall on others, or fall in the galley because they think they are too cool to follow the signs and/or reminders from crew about the seatbelt being on.
Are some on too long? Possibly, however if something were to happen, then it's not the airlines fault you got injured.
With just under 4million miles of flying, I have seen too many injuries resulted from Turbulence.
The worst time is under 10,000 when we get closer to the ground, or going through wx on climb out
one that irks me is when we're still climbing, FAs still in our jumpseats and pax think it's ok to get up. Uh, did you get a personal brief about the climb-out and the potential of turbulence?
Too many times I have seen pax stumble and fall on others, or fall in the galley because they think they are too cool to follow the signs and/or reminders from crew about the seatbelt being on.
Are some on too long? Possibly, however if something were to happen, then it's not the airlines fault you got injured.
With just under 4million miles of flying, I have seen too many injuries resulted from Turbulence.
The worst time is under 10,000 when we get closer to the ground, or going through wx on climb out
Sep 27, 2011, 11:47 am
#21
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The airline is sufficiently covered if they say something along the lines of "even if the seatbelt sign is off, we recommend you remain in your seat with the seatbelt securely fastened." Of course if the pilot is aware of turbulence (to come) and neglects to inform passengers, he may be negligent in his duty of care.
Sep 27, 2011, 11:57 am
#22
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Don't be afraid to ring the FAs and ask them if the sign has been on for a while without any turbulence, especially if your fellow passengers are moving around. If the pilots have forgotten, the FA will be glad to remind them. If it's on for safety, the FAs will make an announcement.
Sep 27, 2011, 12:37 pm
#23
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I may occasionally get up to use the lav when the seat belt sign is illuminated, but only after the FAs are up and we've leveled off, certainly not when the FAs are still strapped into their jumpseats!------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And now that this thread has had some time to percolate within the AA forum, please continue to follow it in TravelBuzz, where general travel topics such as this one are more appropriate.
dstan
AA Forum Co-Moderator
Sep 27, 2011, 2:15 pm
#24
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Per the FAA, the aircraft is Not to be moving on the Tarmac/Runway when a pax is up (currently away from full Internet so don't have the exact FAR), also FAs are to remind pax the seatbelt sign is on (as if they can't see it for themselves) of course we can see that there was an extreme case in this one due to Irene.
one that irks me is when we're still climbing, FAs still in our jumpseats and pax think it's ok to get up. Uh, did you get a personal brief about the climb-out and the potential of turbulence?
Too many times I have seen pax stumble and fall on others, or fall in the galley because they think they are too cool to follow the signs and/or reminders from crew about the seatbelt being on.
Are some on too long? Possibly, however if something were to happen, then it's not the airlines fault you got injured.
With just under 4million miles of flying, I have seen too many injuries resulted from Turbulence.
The worst time is under 10,000 when we get closer to the ground, or going through wx on climb out
one that irks me is when we're still climbing, FAs still in our jumpseats and pax think it's ok to get up. Uh, did you get a personal brief about the climb-out and the potential of turbulence?
Too many times I have seen pax stumble and fall on others, or fall in the galley because they think they are too cool to follow the signs and/or reminders from crew about the seatbelt being on.
Are some on too long? Possibly, however if something were to happen, then it's not the airlines fault you got injured.
With just under 4million miles of flying, I have seen too many injuries resulted from Turbulence.
The worst time is under 10,000 when we get closer to the ground, or going through wx on climb out
Sep 27, 2011, 2:27 pm
#25
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For me, it was a 2 1/2 hour flight from Chicago to Orlando about 15 years ago.
Lots to drink, not allowed to get up and go no matter what.
It was not that terribly bumpy but it was choppy.
Flight crew absolutely forbid getting up. And I was in First.
Thought my bladder was going to explode.
I literally RAN to the restroom when we landed.
That flight crew needs a dose of their own medicine.
It's the only way they are going to learn that at times, nature's call trumps seat belt signs.
Lots to drink, not allowed to get up and go no matter what.
It was not that terribly bumpy but it was choppy.
Flight crew absolutely forbid getting up. And I was in First.
Thought my bladder was going to explode.
I literally RAN to the restroom when we landed.
That flight crew needs a dose of their own medicine.
It's the only way they are going to learn that at times, nature's call trumps seat belt signs.
Sep 28, 2011, 3:04 am
#26
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I suspect the pilots just forget that they left it on. I fly a lot of long-hauls and frequently the sign is on the entire flight. Nobody pays any attention.
In fact, sometimes when turbulence actually occurs, the pilots have to "toggle" the sign, turning it off and then back on to get people's attention, because it was already on!
In fact, sometimes when turbulence actually occurs, the pilots have to "toggle" the sign, turning it off and then back on to get people's attention, because it was already on!
Sep 28, 2011, 3:52 am
#27
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Per the FAA, the aircraft is Not to be moving on the Tarmac/Runway when a pax is up (currently away from full Internet so don't have the exact FAR), also FAs are to remind pax the seatbelt sign is on (as if they can't see it for themselves) of course we can see that there was an extreme case in this one due to Irene.
one that irks me is when we're still climbing, FAs still in our jumpseats and pax think it's ok to get up. Uh, did you get a personal brief about the climb-out and the potential of turbulence?
Too many times I have seen pax stumble and fall on others, or fall in the galley because they think they are too cool to follow the signs and/or reminders from crew about the seatbelt being on.
Are some on too long? Possibly, however if something were to happen, then it's not the airlines fault you got injured.
With just under 4million miles of flying, I have seen too many injuries resulted from Turbulence.
The worst time is under 10,000 when we get closer to the ground, or going through wx on climb out
one that irks me is when we're still climbing, FAs still in our jumpseats and pax think it's ok to get up. Uh, did you get a personal brief about the climb-out and the potential of turbulence?
Too many times I have seen pax stumble and fall on others, or fall in the galley because they think they are too cool to follow the signs and/or reminders from crew about the seatbelt being on.
Are some on too long? Possibly, however if something were to happen, then it's not the airlines fault you got injured.
With just under 4million miles of flying, I have seen too many injuries resulted from Turbulence.
The worst time is under 10,000 when we get closer to the ground, or going through wx on climb out
So by keeping on signs all the time, they actually encourage the behaviour (ignore the sign) that tbey seek to prevent. I fly predominantly on airlines which only use the sign when it is necessary and as a result, I rarely disobey it. However, on a three hour Chinese internal flight, where the sign was on for the entire flight, I did get up to use the lav, and ignored it with few qualms - I was in F so close to the toilets, the toilets were not showing as out of service and there had been no turbulence at all during the flight.
Last edited by Jenbel; Sep 28, 2011 at 4:09 am
Sep 28, 2011, 8:45 am
#28
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It's not always that we think it is ok to, it is a case of 'don't have a lot of options other than soiling myself'. I've had to fly (home) while still unwell, and leave my seat while the sign is still on - we had been queuing for take of for nearly an hour as well. It was that, or a very unpleasant flight for me and those around me for the next eight hours. I tried to be as careful, direct, and quick as I could. What is the real alternative in such a situation?
I know at an AS MVPG lunch a few years back we had a pilot as one of the AS reps, and this question was brought up. [and a couple other good ones]. Basically if you think the sign has been on too long, feel free to contact a F/A who can ask if the folks up front forgot to turn off the light. Happens on occasion.
They can call about sign status.
It is called situational awareness and exercise of Crew Resource Management. Training on effective CRM crew communication pertinent to status and phase of flight is also federally mandated.
In fact, any good FA should call flight deck about sign if it is still on, ride is smooth and people are getting up. They are supposed to CARE about the people in the cabin, and CARE about regulatory compliance. Maybe sign is on because ATC has advised pilots of weather ahead. Crew should communicate this to passengers. "We have the sign on for a few more minutes because we are about to cross a front...We should be able to relaese it in 15 minutes.."
But the problem with just leaving the seatbelt sign on all along, is that what should be warning sign and a vital safety aid becomes something which doesn't adequately reflect the risk. People learn that the risk it represents is limited, and so learn to ignore it as a false warning - which means when it actually is a real warning, and turbulence is expected, people don't know that unless a verbal warning is given as well. It's basic human psychology that we pay attention to threats (which is what the sign psychologically represents) but if we don't see a threat appearing, then we start to ignore the warning signs. In behavioural terms, it's called habituation.
So by keeping on signs all the time, they actually encourage the behaviour (ignore the sign) that tbey seek to prevent. I fly predominantly on airlines which only use the sign when it is necessary and as a result, I rarely disobey it. However, on a three hour Chinese internal flight, where the sign was on for the entire flight, I did get up to use the lav, and ignored it with few qualms - I was in F so close to the toilets, the toilets were not showing as out of service and there had been no turbulence at all during the flight.
So by keeping on signs all the time, they actually encourage the behaviour (ignore the sign) that tbey seek to prevent. I fly predominantly on airlines which only use the sign when it is necessary and as a result, I rarely disobey it. However, on a three hour Chinese internal flight, where the sign was on for the entire flight, I did get up to use the lav, and ignored it with few qualms - I was in F so close to the toilets, the toilets were not showing as out of service and there had been no turbulence at all during the flight.
The leading cause of injury in Part 121 flight operations is turbulence, mostly fas due to their work, but a number of passengers also.
The sign has absolutely NO MEANING if it is "ON" all the time. People will be up at a time when the sign is on for a safety reason, and because of 11 hours from NRT on last flight when sign was on the whole time, they don't know the difference. That is when they get hurt.
Carriers/pilots that want their passengers to be comfortable and as "at home" as possible on a metal tube hurtling through space 5 miles above the earth at 500 mph release the sign as soon as possible.
These carriers/pilots who do not want passengers to feel as if they are on a prison barge will turn the sign off as soon as it is safe to do so. They do not leave it on for 11 hours because they are scared of an attorney, forget or don't care that the passengers are there, or want an environment that will allow any crewmember at any time to be able to tell someone to sit down or any combination thereof...And a 777 crew with NO ONE (like 3 pilots and 9-10 fas) who would discuss the sign being on for 11 hours should be asked to provide their rationale by AA's Corporate Safety Department. They need to be retrained in CRM.
If crews want compliance from passengers (and they should), compliance should be realistic and reasonable.
Last edited by Clipper110A; Sep 28, 2011 at 9:00 am Reason: typo...format issue
Sep 28, 2011, 9:02 am
#29
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Title 14: Aeronautics and Space
PART 121—OPERATING REQUIREMENTS: DOMESTIC, FLAG, AND SUPPLEMENTAL OPERATIONS
Subpart K—Instrument and Equipment Requirements
§ 121.317 Passenger information requirements, smoking prohibitions, and additional seat belt requirements.
(a) Except as provided in paragraph (l) of this section, no person may operate an airplane unless it is equipped with passenger information signs that meet the requirements of §25.791 of this chapter. Except as provided in paragraph (l) of this section, the signs must be constructed so that the crewmembers can turn them on and off.
(b) Except as provided in paragraph (l) of this section, the “Fasten Seat Belt” sign shall be turned on during any movement on the surface, for each takeoff, for each landing, and at any other time considered necessary by the pilot in command.... (emphasis mine) PIC has broad authority here, but 11 hours is over the top. No reasonable person would accept that PIC would consider 11 hours and 300 people to stay seated...
(c), (d), (e), NA to this thread
(f) Each passenger required by §121.311(b) to occupy a seat or berth shall fasten his or her safety belt about him or her and keep it fastened while the “Fasten Seat Belt” sign is lighted.
Sep 28, 2011, 9:57 am
#30
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But with the number of aircraft crossing daily and the length of time involved doing little but monitor systems on the crossing, gaining info from PIREPs (pilot reports) or company dispatch, wx with prevailing winds might be possible or desirable.
Keep the sign on the whole time...
Maybe catheters for every pax or just knock us all out with thorazine until landing. Crew would be thrilled, they would be able do less work..Some would not be able to take their rage out on pax as some do, but if unconscious, maybe they could hit us with sticks... hahaha
Last edited by Clipper110A; Sep 28, 2011 at 10:12 am Reason: typo, amplified info