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what to do when airline warned me about numerous throw-away ticketing? ($95 vs $497)

what to do when airline warned me about numerous throw-away ticketing? ($95 vs $497)

Old Jan 2, 2011, 7:29 pm
  #61  
 
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Originally Posted by chelmkamp
Anyone know of any actual case law to back up the argument one way or another? And what does the contract actual say?
I do not have any examples of case law relating to air-tickets but there is plenty of case law (provided recently to me by a lawyer) in the software space about this. One of the most well known cases is Microsoft bundling internet explorer or other M$ products and fining (by contract) manufacturers/OEM for removing said components. Both the courts in the US and EU found this to be illegal conduct. Again not sure if this this would stretch to airline tickets.

As my lawyer said at the time there is no law to force you to eat the full loaf of bread after you buy it.
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Old Jan 2, 2011, 7:34 pm
  #62  
 
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Originally Posted by SWCPHX
It is the airline's own routing/scheduling that allows hidden city ticketing. If they want to maintain their high dollar monopoly from A-B, they should not offer flights from A-C with a stopover in B. Fly directly A-C only.
In fact, the airline need only do this on days when nobody on board has purchased a ticket to city B. "Hey folks, since nobody is going to B today and nobody is boarding this flight there, we've decided to head right over to C. You'll be there ahead of schedule. Fasten your seatbelts and enjoy the ride."

If the airline had a sense of humor that would be the best approach, methinks.
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Old Jan 2, 2011, 8:06 pm
  #63  
 
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Originally Posted by trajanc
No offense but your random personal pov only means YOU should not do this.
No offense taken, well except maybe for the "random" part since I don't think of my own ethical perspective as random; I think of it as the outcome of more years than I wish to living and learning.

People live by their own ethics; others get to see the way they live, and decide if it is a way they would choose to emulate or not. If I take someone up on a contract I do my best to adhere to it, and expect them to do the same. It matters not to me if it is my neighbor, a friend, the government or a business. For others, I guess it does. They have an attitude I choose not to emulate.

By the way, I don't think throwing away the ticket to EWR is illegal, but it does violate the contract of carriage. People agree to all sorts of things in contracts that don't make sense. If you don't want to fly to Newark, don't buy a ticket to do so, or find an airline that doesn't prohibit hidden city ticketing in its contract.
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Old Jan 2, 2011, 8:20 pm
  #64  
 
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Originally Posted by yamaka
No offense taken, well except maybe for the "random" part since I don't think of my own ethical perspective as random; I think of it as the outcome of more years than I wish to living and learning.

People live by their own ethics; others get to see the way they live, and decide if it is a way they would choose to emulate or not. If I take someone up on a contract I do my best to adhere to it, and expect them to do the same. It matters not to me if it is my neighbor, a friend, the government or a business. For others, I guess it does. They have an attitude I choose not to emulate.

By the way, I don't think throwing away the ticket to EWR is illegal, but it does violate the contract of carriage. People agree to all sorts of things in contracts that don't make sense. If you don't want to fly to Newark, don't buy a ticket to do so, or find an airline that doesn't prohibit hidden city ticketing in its contract.
I understand. I did not mean that you yourself randomly came to this position. I just meant that from my pov it's random. If that makes sense.

Personally I always find it to be ridiculous when a business or an entire industry offers pricing that is convenient to them but otherwise really irrational especially to the consumer and then asks the consumer to politely just play along. Especially when they themselves are abstaining from the cost of fixing compliance or rationalizing the prices.

I briefly worked for an airline some years back and had this issue explained to me for a few price structures. In some instances the reasoning made sense. In others it was just arbitrary and bizarre. But the constant was the airline's awareness that it was a delicate issue to manage as it was accepted that if any publicity came about from them trying to force people to pay more for taking half a flight they would always look like the bad guys. And rightly so, imho.

Personally I think hidden city ticketing should be abused by everyone as much as possible until the need to abuse it goes away. If the airline doesn't like it's up to them to do something about it.
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Old Jan 2, 2011, 8:30 pm
  #65  
 
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Originally Posted by trajanc
Personally I think hidden city ticketing should be abused by everyone as much as possible until the need to abuse it goes away. If the airline doesn't like it's up to them to do something about it.
Civil disobedience in the face of capricious exercise of authority is well within my realm of ethics. With that arguement, I might have to reconsider this question.
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Old Jan 2, 2011, 8:46 pm
  #66  
 
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I think the suggestions that this sort of thing is "OK" in Europe are incorrect...

Didn't that court ruling in Germany still leave the way open for airlines to reprice hidden city trips? No gain there then I would think!

And don't "we" take advantage equally of strange airline pricing practices? Do we REALLY want them to all become completely rational?

I suspect not.. we just want those we don't like to change...
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Old Jan 2, 2011, 8:48 pm
  #67  
 
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Originally Posted by yamaka
Civil disobedience in the face of capricious exercise of authority is well within my realm of ethics. With that arguement, I might have to reconsider this question.
heh My caveat is that the 'fix' might be worse than the problem.
And my recollection of details now is hazy. It was 9 years ago when I had this stuff explained to me. Would be interesting to hear an industry perspective again now that is more detailed than some of their compliance material. ?
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Old Jan 2, 2011, 8:50 pm
  #68  
 
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Originally Posted by trooper

And don't "we" take advantage equally of strange airline pricing practices? Do we REALLY want them to all become completely rational?

I suspect not.. we just want those we don't like to change...
Yeah, exactly.
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Old Jan 2, 2011, 9:03 pm
  #69  
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Originally Posted by trajanc
Personally I always find it to be ridiculous when a business or an entire industry offers pricing that is convenient to them but otherwise really irrational especially to the consumer and then asks the consumer to politely just play along. Especially when they themselves are abstaining from the cost of fixing compliance or rationalizing the prices... Personally I think hidden city ticketing should be abused by everyone as much as possible until the need to abuse it goes away. If the airline doesn't like it's up to them to do something about it.
So you are saying that consumers have a moral right to evade, upend, cheat their way around prices that don't seem fair or rational to them?

No offense, but the consumer is not the best judge. Airline pricing is rational at levels invisible to the customer. It all makes sense at a macro level and is closely tuned into supply and demand.

If the price of Champagne rises before New Year's Eve, should outraged Champagne buyers plunk down the lower, August price and run out the liquor store door? If a nasty little quesadilla costs $10.99 airside but you know it's only worth $4.99, do you have a right to pay the lower price and take off? Of course not. Those are rational prices; the fact that you don't like them is immaterial.

Again: the airline in this case is pricing A-to-B tickets much higher than A-B-C tickets for good supply-and-demand reasons. Customers don't have the right to pay a lower price just because they're outraged by the going rate.
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Old Jan 2, 2011, 9:06 pm
  #70  
 
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Originally Posted by trajanc
heh My caveat is that the 'fix' might be worse than the problem.
True; it's this pricing model that brings about crazy "spoke-hub-hub-hub-spoke" routings that cost much less than a direct flight. Major bummer for mileage runners if they institute something "rational" like a flat rate per mile.
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Old Jan 2, 2011, 9:09 pm
  #71  
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I don't get the secrecy. Why don't you tell us your route instead of referring to "A-B"? We may come up with alternatives. Maybe there is an airport very close to either "A" or "B" that is served by a low cost airline.
Also, sometimes the construction of a partial open jaw, i.e. A-B-C, B-A will save a lot of money compared to A-B, B-A.
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Old Jan 2, 2011, 9:25 pm
  #72  
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Originally Posted by rjw242
True; it's this pricing model that brings about crazy "spoke-hub-hub-hub-spoke" routings that cost much less than a direct flight.
There's nothing crazy at all about charging less for connecting flights than nonstops. Likewise, there is nothing irrational at all about charging less for an A-> HUB -> B flight than for a nonstop from A to a hub. There is lots of competition in the former case, none in the latter case. Nearly every flight through a hub-and-spoke system offers the potential for hidden-city abuse, and plenty of people here are arguing -- wrongly -- that it's OK to undermine that model if you can find a way.
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Old Jan 2, 2011, 9:39 pm
  #73  
 
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Originally Posted by BearX220
Nearly every flight through a hub-and-spoke system offers the potential for hidden-city abuse, and plenty of people here are arguing -- wrongly -- that it's OK to undermine that model if you can find a way.
Well, what you call "wrong" is what I call rational consumer behavior. But the world don't mooove to the beat of just one drum: what might be right for you, may not be right for so-ome
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Old Jan 2, 2011, 9:47 pm
  #74  
 
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Originally Posted by BearX220
So you are saying that consumers have a moral right to evade, upend, cheat their way around prices that don't seem fair or rational to them?

No offense, but the consumer is not the best judge. Airline pricing is rational at levels invisible to the customer. It all makes sense at a macro level and is closely tuned into supply and demand.

If the price of Champagne rises before New Year's Eve, should outraged Champagne buyers plunk down the lower, August price and run out the liquor store door? If a nasty little quesadilla costs $10.99 airside but you know it's only worth $4.99, do you have a right to pay the lower price and take off? Of course not. Those are rational prices; the fact that you don't like them is immaterial.

Again: the airline in this case is pricing A-to-B tickets much higher than A-B-C tickets for good supply-and-demand reasons. Customers don't have the right to pay a lower price just because they're outraged by the going rate.
Your analogies aren't accurate. Customers aren't paying the August price for Champagne at New Year's, they're throwing away the party hat that the liquor store hands out on New Year's Eve when you buy the Champagne. Customers aren't paying $4.99 for a $10.99 quesadilla, they're throwing away the plastic cup of jalapenos that they got with the $10.99 quesadilla because they didn't want them.
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Old Jan 2, 2011, 9:47 pm
  #75  
 
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Can your connecting flight be on another airline while maintaining the price advantage?

I've used throw-away ticketing to get from BOS to LHR in the last minute. One way BOS-LHR/LGW-DUB can often be $300 when BOS-LHR is $1800. My connection was always either the next day or from Gatwick in order to get my luggage back at LHR.

Airline can't force me to make my connection anymore than they can make me eat their food.
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