Can Verizon Ellipsis Jetpacks bypass Gogo Inflight?
Oct 24, 2017, 9:34 am
#61
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Well, it was something else. The Jetpacks won't use the GoGo bandwidth. They create a WiFi signal, not use one. I've certainly seen GoGo showing up as a network on my iPad but not being able to connect to the ground. As I recall it even shows up under 10,000 feet but it doesn't work.
Oct 24, 2017, 9:45 am
#62
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Could it have been the possibility that one or more of the Jetpacks was operating on the same wifi channel/frequency as GoGo? There aren't a lot of channels to choose from in the 2.4GHz range, which I suspect is what GoGo uses.
Oct 24, 2017, 10:29 am
#63
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My guess is that this is a case of confirmation bias. GoGo wasn't working on a previous flight. Someone pointed out to the FA that there was a Verizon JetPack network visible in their wifi networks list, and said they thought that was the cause of the problem.
Thereafter, the FA knew to look at an available wifi networks list when GoGo didn't work. They happened to see JetPack on the list and concluded that the previous passenger's explanation was right.
Oct 24, 2017, 11:47 am
#64
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Bottom line is that Verizon Jetpacks are cell phones, not to used from the time the cabin doors are closed until the wheels are down on the runway.
I don't recall seeing any "airplane" mode for my Verizon Jetpack.
They should not be powered on in flight except when cell phones are allowed. They are 4G LTE cell phones (capable of degrading to 3G or 2G as needed) with a wireless router built in.
Nobody is "stealing" the bandwidth. The frequencies allotted to 801.11 wireless are available to everyone provided that his devices conform to the IEEE specs (which I'm sure the Jetpack does).
The WiFi side of it is created with 802.11 hardware. The 4G (and sometimes 3G & 2G) communications is for the uplink to the internet.
Simply not true. At my cabin in northern MN I have used my Verizon Jetpack approx 6-7 miles from the tower, with some small hills in the way. 4G performance was tolerable, occasionally dropping to 3G. If you are flying over an area well covered by Verizon towers, you should have no problem getting a signal 30,000 feet up.
Also recall that on 9/11, the passengers on UA 93 & AA 77 were talking to their families during the hijacking, and from all accounts the connections were working reliably.
I don't recall seeing any "airplane" mode for my Verizon Jetpack.
Nobody is "stealing" the bandwidth. The frequencies allotted to 801.11 wireless are available to everyone provided that his devices conform to the IEEE specs (which I'm sure the Jetpack does).
Also recall that on 9/11, the passengers on UA 93 & AA 77 were talking to their families during the hijacking, and from all accounts the connections were working reliably.
Last edited by MikeMpls; Oct 24, 2017 at 12:18 pm
Oct 24, 2017, 1:12 pm
#65
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Bottom line is that Verizon Jetpacks are cell phones, not to used from the time the cabin doors are closed until the wheels are down on the runway.
I don't recall seeing any "airplane" mode for my Verizon Jetpack.
They should not be powered on in flight except when cell phones are allowed. They are 4G LTE cell phones (capable of degrading to 3G or 2G as needed) with a wireless router built in.
Nobody is "stealing" the bandwidth. The frequencies allotted to 801.11 wireless are available to everyone provided that his devices conform to the IEEE specs (which I'm sure the Jetpack does).
The WiFi side of it is created with 802.11 hardware. The 4G (and sometimes 3G & 2G) communications is for the uplink to the internet.
Simply not true. At my cabin in northern MN I have used my Verizon Jetpack approx 6-7 miles from the tower, with some small hills in the way. 4G performance was tolerable, occasionally dropping to 3G. If you are flying over an area well covered by Verizon towers, you should have no problem getting a signal 30,000 feet up.
Also recall that on 9/11, the passengers on UA 93 & AA 77 were talking to their families during the hijacking, and from all accounts the connections were working reliably.
I don't recall seeing any "airplane" mode for my Verizon Jetpack.
They should not be powered on in flight except when cell phones are allowed. They are 4G LTE cell phones (capable of degrading to 3G or 2G as needed) with a wireless router built in.
Nobody is "stealing" the bandwidth. The frequencies allotted to 801.11 wireless are available to everyone provided that his devices conform to the IEEE specs (which I'm sure the Jetpack does).
The WiFi side of it is created with 802.11 hardware. The 4G (and sometimes 3G & 2G) communications is for the uplink to the internet.
Simply not true. At my cabin in northern MN I have used my Verizon Jetpack approx 6-7 miles from the tower, with some small hills in the way. 4G performance was tolerable, occasionally dropping to 3G. If you are flying over an area well covered by Verizon towers, you should have no problem getting a signal 30,000 feet up.
Also recall that on 9/11, the passengers on UA 93 & AA 77 were talking to their families during the hijacking, and from all accounts the connections were working reliably.
After all, as you stated first, a mobile hotspot is basically a cell phone without the voice capabilities. You don't see everyone with a Verizon phone passing on a Gogo plan because their phones are usable in the sky.
Oct 24, 2017, 1:31 pm
#66
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I see people leaving their hotspots on (or their phones in hotspot mode) on virtually 100% of flights. The fact that someone saw a hotspot in their wifi list when GoGo wasn't working really has no correlation.
This is something many people are misinformed about. It is much MUCH better to have two networks on the same frequency than on adjacent frequencies. Frequency bands 1 and 2 overlap almost totally. 1 and 3 overlap a little. Likewise 2 and 3 overlap a lot and 2 and 4 a little, etc, etc. Wifi has mechanisms to share frequencies but this only works if they are in the same exact channel band. What this means is that there are only a maximum of 3 non-overlapping channels 1, 6, and 11. Anyone who sets their wifi network to channels 2-5 or 7-10 when 1, 6, and 11 are the norm is not only making their own device go slower but slowing down everyone else around them. It is a (censored) dork (/censored) move. Use 1, 6, and 11 on 2.4GHz.
https://www.metageek.com/training/re...ls-1-6-11.html
https://www.metageek.com/training/re...ls-1-6-11.html
Oct 24, 2017, 2:19 pm
#67
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Really, thinking about this a bit will show how implausible it is. JetPacks do not receive WiFi signals, so they can't receive the GoGo WiFi signal on the plane. Most places I go there are multiple WiFi networks to choose from. One is selected but no matter what, the others aren't interfering.
These JetPacks receive a Verizon LTE (cellular) signal. Unless the GoGo does the same from ground based towers, they wouldn't interfere. If they were capable of interfering with that signal then anytime someone turned on a JetPack on the ground, it would interfere with all cell phone signals farther from the tower than the JetPack - in other words all planes and most ground based cell phones. Of course this doesn't happen. And neither did the interference on the plane.
These JetPacks receive a Verizon LTE (cellular) signal. Unless the GoGo does the same from ground based towers, they wouldn't interfere. If they were capable of interfering with that signal then anytime someone turned on a JetPack on the ground, it would interfere with all cell phone signals farther from the tower than the JetPack - in other words all planes and most ground based cell phones. Of course this doesn't happen. And neither did the interference on the plane.
Last edited by GadgetFreak; Oct 24, 2017 at 2:38 pm
Oct 24, 2017, 2:49 pm
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Most useful comment from the DL Forum thread by user BenA. I feel like it should be "case closed" after his comment.
Also, if interference were such an issue, we'd never be able to connect in condos/apts (as BenA points out) or in coffee shops where there are multiple jetpacks, phones sending wifi signals, and others using the store wifi. Or airports, for that matter.
As an engineer who deals with Wi-Fi all the time, it’s highly unlikely the mobile hotspots were the cause of the problem.
For one, there are typically 3+ Gogo access points on each aircraft, so the hotspots (with their relatively small antenna) would easily be overpowered by the Gogo APs... and if only two mobile hotspots were present on the plane, at least one of the zones should have been fully unaffected.
Furthermore, I believe the three APs each use unique channels (1,6,11) - so that further reduces the likelihood of WiFi interference. And even if everything was on the same channel, WiFi is designed to work anyway - otherwise apartment dwellers would never have working Internet. (I can see 35+ APs from my condo, for example.)
For two, my understanding is that Delta Studio content is served up from an onboard server. No downlink to the ground is involved, so since it wasn’t working on OP’s flight we can entirely eliminate cellular service as a variable.
What really likely happened here is that the Gogo system was on the fritz of its own volition, and the FAs only source of troubleshooting was other things they saw advertised in the WiFi settings on their phone. That registered as something they thought might be a problem, so they made an announcement asking people to turn them off.
Remember, there’s nothing special about a mobile hotspot - it’s just the guts of a cheap smart phone in a box with a big battery and some dedicated software. They should definitely be in flight mode to prevent them from searching for cell network signal at high power, just like a phone should, but that wouldn’t cause WiFi issues or problems with Delta Studio, so we can eliminate that as a cause of OP’s issues.
On nearly every flight I’ve taken, somebody has forgotten to turn off their mobile hotspot - and it never causes problems with Gogo. It’s unfortunate that OP’s flight was having issues, and I’m sure the FAs were trying to troubleshoot in good faith, but it’s extremely unlikely this was an interference issue.
For one, there are typically 3+ Gogo access points on each aircraft, so the hotspots (with their relatively small antenna) would easily be overpowered by the Gogo APs... and if only two mobile hotspots were present on the plane, at least one of the zones should have been fully unaffected.
Furthermore, I believe the three APs each use unique channels (1,6,11) - so that further reduces the likelihood of WiFi interference. And even if everything was on the same channel, WiFi is designed to work anyway - otherwise apartment dwellers would never have working Internet. (I can see 35+ APs from my condo, for example.)
For two, my understanding is that Delta Studio content is served up from an onboard server. No downlink to the ground is involved, so since it wasn’t working on OP’s flight we can entirely eliminate cellular service as a variable.
What really likely happened here is that the Gogo system was on the fritz of its own volition, and the FAs only source of troubleshooting was other things they saw advertised in the WiFi settings on their phone. That registered as something they thought might be a problem, so they made an announcement asking people to turn them off.
Remember, there’s nothing special about a mobile hotspot - it’s just the guts of a cheap smart phone in a box with a big battery and some dedicated software. They should definitely be in flight mode to prevent them from searching for cell network signal at high power, just like a phone should, but that wouldn’t cause WiFi issues or problems with Delta Studio, so we can eliminate that as a cause of OP’s issues.
On nearly every flight I’ve taken, somebody has forgotten to turn off their mobile hotspot - and it never causes problems with Gogo. It’s unfortunate that OP’s flight was having issues, and I’m sure the FAs were trying to troubleshoot in good faith, but it’s extremely unlikely this was an interference issue.
Oct 24, 2017, 4:15 pm
#69
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Upon discussion with the OP, we have merged two threads that were started in different forums (Delta and Travel Technology). This assures that the subject gets the widest audience, since the problem isn't truly limited to DL.
Oct 24, 2017, 4:30 pm
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Oct 24, 2017, 4:41 pm
#71
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You actually said yes they do, then went on to explain, correctly, that they don’t. LTE is not WiFi.
Oct 24, 2017, 4:55 pm
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Oct 24, 2017, 5:45 pm
#73
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They cannot log on to a WiFi network though, only to LTE networks. They can only serve as a WiFi hotspot to provide a connection for other devices.
Oct 24, 2017, 8:00 pm
#74
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Of course. I was simply disagreeing with what I felt was an over-broad description of the hotspot's wifi functionality, and I believe that was MikeMpls' issue with it as well.
Oct 24, 2017, 8:43 pm
#75
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I don't pretend to know that much about how this stuff works, so can you explain why a mobile hotspot would need to receive a WiFi signal?
