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-   -   Is an airplane "hackable?" (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/travel-technology/1639201-airplane-hackable.html)

dcpdxtrans Dec 22, 2014 12:15 pm


Originally Posted by theskunk (Post 24034934)
Most of the avionics packages in those airplanes are somewhat old and cannot be directly attached to a thumb drive. Even in the newer glass-panel aircraft, the entire system has to be physically removed. The primary driver for this is security and stability - you really don't want to have something that hasn't been tested and re-tested guiding an airplane on a long (or even short) flight in questionable weather.

Experience: Software Engineer, LSRM, Experimental Aircraft Builder (helped with my own avionics packages)

I feel like I just heard three snaps in a Z-like fashion...

That's all I need but good Q by OP bc I had wondered the same

Orwaid Dec 22, 2014 12:29 pm

To follow up on an earlier comment, I have always thought that the first MH 777 was stolen, a la Ian Fleming's Thunderball.

Take the plane way up, asphixiate everyone but the pilot, take the plane down low heading west over the Indian Ocean to avoid radar, then turn somewhere and land the plane.

Now people have all the time in the world to examine a fully functioning aircraft. Forget just tacking the avionics; they can try to hack an entire plane, looking for ANY way to bring it down.

bruce80 Dec 22, 2014 1:03 pm

Recalling a (quite mediocre) novel I've read some time ago, a man-in-the-middle attack against the field bus *could* be imaginable.

While I don't know anything about field bus protocols used in aviation (and whether commands sent over the bus are signed or otherwise authenticated), I would probably not attack the avionics software (or the hardware it's running on).

The avionics systems themselves don't "fly" the aircraft, they only calculate commands that are used as inputs to servos, hydraulic valves and the like. What if someone (for example, a mole in engineering) plugs in some obscure device between the bus controller and the actuator (or replacing the bus controller for one or several actuators), manipulating the commands executed by the actuator?

This should be enough to render an aircraft uncontrollable by the pilots. Of course this is nothing that could be done by plugging an iDevice somewhere into the plane..

Foofighter69 Dec 22, 2014 3:36 pm

Presumably with the move to more sophisticated bi-directional aircraft reporting systems like ADS-B IN it's only a matter of time.

Googling 'Remote Control Boeing' brings up some interesting articles about legitimate attempts to do this.

wco81 Dec 22, 2014 9:51 pm

What about with the Wifi systems?

Those cost a lot to install. Maybe something thought why not hook it up to some of the avionics?

The other thing is that airliners can supposedly be flown remotely. Of course in fiction, such systems can be hacked, like the last season of 24 where terrorists get control of US drones and send them to London.

planemechanic Dec 22, 2014 10:13 pm


Originally Posted by wco81 (Post 24040101)
What about with the Wifi systems?

Those cost a lot to install. Maybe something thought why not hook it up to some of the avionics?

The other thing is that airliners can supposedly be flown remotely. Of course in fiction, such systems can be hacked, like the last season of 24 where terrorists get control of US drones and send them to London.


Pure fiction.

SpannerSpinner Dec 22, 2014 11:50 pm


Originally Posted by wco81 (Post 24040101)
What about with the Wifi systems?

Those cost a lot to install. Maybe something thought why not hook it up to some of the avionics?

Everything to do with commercial aviation is expensive.. US$5000+ for a sticker for a rolls-royce engine is one example I've heard of.


The other thing is that airliners can supposedly be flown remotely. Of course in fiction, such systems can be hacked, like the last season of 24 where terrorists get control of US drones and send them to London.
Big difference between remotely controlling a drone that is designed to be remotely controlled, and remotely controlling an aircraft that's designed to have a meat puppet at the controls.

blue2002 Dec 23, 2014 12:46 am

http://www.fieldbrook.net/TechTips/i...oth_Airbus.jpg

gfunkdave Dec 23, 2014 7:56 am


Originally Posted by SpannerSpinner (Post 24040412)
Everything to do with commercial aviation is expensive.. US$5000+ for a sticker for a rolls-royce engine is one example I've heard of.
.

Yikes!

Reminds me of an old Dave Barry bit where he says the Pentagon is unable to purchase anything that costs less than a condo in Vail. If the Pentagon needs fruit, for example, it will argue that it must have fruit which can withstand the rigors of combat and will procure the FX-7000 Seedless Tactical Field Grape, which will cost $183,000 per bunch and have a failure rate of 60%.

:)

wh6cto Dec 23, 2014 8:41 am

The IFE often has map data on it, showing position, altitude, speed, distance to destination, etc. I wonder whether it comes from an independent GPS, or from avionics? I seem to recall that on past flights, the heading at the gate was correct (also while being towed in reverse), which tends to indicate this does not come from GPS. So maybe there is a connection between avionics and IFE? Hopefully, it is a very unidirectional connection!

antichef Dec 23, 2014 10:15 am


Originally Posted by SpannerSpinner (Post 24040412)
Everything to do with commercial aviation is expensive.. US$5000+ for a sticker for a rolls-royce engine is one example I've heard of....

Even on the personal use terrestrial versions of a RR engine, I can assure you it is pretty expensive to have work done on the engine or the passenger carrying bodywork too ;)

As they say ... "If you need to ask, you can't afford it" :D:D

echen1024 Dec 23, 2014 12:52 pm

While aircraft are not directly connected to the internet, newer model A/C like the 787 have software update capability either through in internet or via a USB type thing. Compromise that and you're good to go.

Sigwx Dec 23, 2014 1:03 pm

Given the vast numbers of different programming languages in avionics data busses (ARINC 429,615,629,664.7,708 etc etc etc) I highly doubt it possible. The IFE is not directly linked to FMCS or GPSs but receives data reform an intermediary within the avionics architecture....that operates on a different ARINC comms bus. If it could be done it no doubt would already have been done. Such is the world.

747FC Dec 23, 2014 1:36 pm

FWIW:

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-st...e-8569117.html

Happy Holidays!

GUWonder Dec 23, 2014 7:13 pm

Remote avionics disablement even of military fighter jet equipment has been possible under some circumstances even in the days when Al Gore was still in the US Senate as just one of the two U.S. Senators from Tennessee. Just saying.


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