Actually, it looks like you can still fly without ID
Jun 9, 2008, 2:12 pm
#1
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Actually, it looks like you can still fly without ID
Boingboing finally posted a story about the recent change and in the comments section, someone made a very interesting point:
Full comment here: http://www.boingboing.net/2008/06/09...comment-206992
He makes a very good point. It appears, by the policy, that you can fly without a ID card. Just leave it home, verbally identify yourself, and tell the screener than you did leave it at home.
While I am totally sympathetic, you/Soghoian are unfortunately misreading the TSA release:
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"This change will apply exclusively to individuals that simply refuse to provide any identification or assist transportation security officers in ascertaining their identity."
That "or assist" part makes quite a bit of difference. "Passengers who refuse to show ID, citing the rights" still will be accommodated if they "assist transportation security officers in ascertaining their identity." This is similar to the Fourth Amendment case law on ID, which is also widely misunderstood by the lay public. You have every right not to carry ID, but you do not have the right to withhold your identity from law enforcement if they have a legitimate reason for knowing it (e.g., because you've been lawfully arrested).
...
The TSA is merely clarifying that, "you have no right to fly anonymously," not that "you no longer have the right to invoke your right to fly without ID." They're two different things.
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"This change will apply exclusively to individuals that simply refuse to provide any identification or assist transportation security officers in ascertaining their identity."
That "or assist" part makes quite a bit of difference. "Passengers who refuse to show ID, citing the rights" still will be accommodated if they "assist transportation security officers in ascertaining their identity." This is similar to the Fourth Amendment case law on ID, which is also widely misunderstood by the lay public. You have every right not to carry ID, but you do not have the right to withhold your identity from law enforcement if they have a legitimate reason for knowing it (e.g., because you've been lawfully arrested).
...
The TSA is merely clarifying that, "you have no right to fly anonymously," not that "you no longer have the right to invoke your right to fly without ID." They're two different things.
He makes a very good point. It appears, by the policy, that you can fly without a ID card. Just leave it home, verbally identify yourself, and tell the screener than you did leave it at home.
Jun 9, 2008, 2:17 pm
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Jun 9, 2008, 2:30 pm
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Boingboing finally posted a story about the recent change and in the comments section, someone made a very interesting point:
Full comment here: http://www.boingboing.net/2008/06/09...comment-206992
He makes a very good point. It appears, by the policy, that you can fly without a ID card. Just leave it home, verbally identify yourself, and tell the screener than you did leave it at home.
Full comment here: http://www.boingboing.net/2008/06/09...comment-206992
He makes a very good point. It appears, by the policy, that you can fly without a ID card. Just leave it home, verbally identify yourself, and tell the screener than you did leave it at home.
The issue still is that -- before month end -- flying without being identified by government or government-designated personnel is going to more often involve more than just SSSS screening and if the TSA or TSA-designated government personnel don't like the answers or non-answers from a ticketed passenger whose identification (to the satisfaction of TSA or TSA-designated personnel) the government is mandating, travel will be denied to such a passenger per this TSA policy.
Jun 9, 2008, 2:58 pm
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Flying without being IDed -- whether by ID card or government investigation (however cursory) -- is something the TSA is intending to get rid off with this move.
The issue still is that -- before month end -- flying without being identified by government or government-designated personnel is going to more often involve more than just SSSS screening and if the TSA or TSA-designated government personnel don't like the answers or non-answers from a ticketed passenger whose identification (to the satisfaction of TSA or TSA-designated personnel) the government is mandating, travel will be denied to such a passenger per this TSA policy.
The issue still is that -- before month end -- flying without being identified by government or government-designated personnel is going to more often involve more than just SSSS screening and if the TSA or TSA-designated government personnel don't like the answers or non-answers from a ticketed passenger whose identification (to the satisfaction of TSA or TSA-designated personnel) the government is mandating, travel will be denied to such a passenger per this TSA policy.
Jun 9, 2008, 3:05 pm
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The idea of "forgetting" the ID was discussed in the other threads and it is a viable option unless you need your ID for some other act, like renting a car, buying a beer or other reasonable uses of ID during your trip.
I'm happy to help them ascertain my identity. I'll continue to state my name as frequently as they ask.
I'm happy to help them ascertain my identity. I'll continue to state my name as frequently as they ask.
Jun 9, 2008, 3:08 pm
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I would be willing to bet this is just another "catch the big one" dragnet which will include BOTH a BDO (asking they inane SPOT questions) and a LEO running a Wants/Warrants check on the traveler. The choice to show/not show ID DOES NOT provide enough evidence for Reasonable Suspicion or Probable Cause (the minimum required standards for Wants/Warrants checks). If either one of them doesn't like the traveler, for ANY reason, they will be denied access to the sterile area, making DY...T a reality.
Jun 9, 2008, 3:09 pm
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The idea of "forgetting" the ID was discussed in the other threads and it is a viable option unless you need your ID for some other act, like renting a car, buying a beer or other reasonable uses of ID during your trip.
I'm happy to help them ascertain my identity. I'll continue to state my name as frequently as they ask.
I'm happy to help them ascertain my identity. I'll continue to state my name as frequently as they ask.
Name/Rank/Serial Number.
Since most of us are probably not active duty military personnel, we just leave off the Rank/Serial Number.
Jun 9, 2008, 3:09 pm
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Your name is on your boarding pass. Assuming they can read, they'll know your name. Why do they need more assistance than that? More ridiculous than the focus on identity is them, in effect, forcing you to say the name printed on the boarding pass.
And what if you have a complicated name or an accent and they don't agree with your pronunciation? "It's spelled 'Luxury Yatch', but it's pronounced 'Throat-Warbler Mangrove'".
*sigh*
It grows more asinine by the minute.
And what if you have a complicated name or an accent and they don't agree with your pronunciation? "It's spelled 'Luxury Yatch', but it's pronounced 'Throat-Warbler Mangrove'".
*sigh*
It grows more asinine by the minute.
Jun 9, 2008, 3:38 pm
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Jun 9, 2008, 3:45 pm
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Of course, that is the date and place I was reborn as a Devil Dog...
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Jun 9, 2008, 3:54 pm
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Jun 9, 2008, 3:56 pm
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Because the three missing letters are W, T & F. Since that can be used to mean something else, the board software is self-censoring.
Jun 9, 2008, 3:56 pm
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Interesting line of thought. One would have to be very careful and not lie. "I don't have an ID" followed by a search that uncovers a DL or passport would give them reasonable suspicion to do anything they wanted to do to you.
The interesting situation occurs when you assert your right to fly without presenting an ID and then they take your DL and involuntarily take down the info. The screener would violate the Privacy Act (not a big deal for Chertoff) but the cop could do it after articulating reasonable suspicion, which, of course, they could say they have based on your insistence of exercising your rights.
But, here's an additional rub: Can a cop demand to see your DL to run you for a situation that is NOT a traffic-related incident?
Interesting line of thought. One would have to be very careful and not lie. "I don't have an ID" followed by a search that uncovers a DL or passport would give them reasonable suspicion to do anything they wanted to do to you.
The interesting situation occurs when you assert your right to fly without presenting an ID and then they take your DL and involuntarily take down the info. The screener would violate the Privacy Act (not a big deal for Chertoff) but the cop could do it after articulating reasonable suspicion, which, of course, they could say they have based on your insistence of exercising your rights.
But, here's an additional rub: Can a cop demand to see your DL to run you for a situation that is NOT a traffic-related incident?
Jun 9, 2008, 4:00 pm
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Interesting line of thought. One would have to be very careful and not lie. "I don't have an ID" followed by a search that uncovers a DL or passport would give them reasonable suspicion to do anything they wanted to do to you.
The interesting situation occurs when you assert your right to fly without presenting an ID and then they take your DL and involuntarily take down the info. The screener would violate the Privacy Act (not a big deal for Chertoff) but the cop could do it after articulating reasonable suspicion, which, of course, they could say they have based on your insistence of exercising your rights.
But, here's an additional rub: Can a cop demand to see your DL to run you for a situation that is NOT a traffic-related incident?
Interesting line of thought. One would have to be very careful and not lie. "I don't have an ID" followed by a search that uncovers a DL or passport would give them reasonable suspicion to do anything they wanted to do to you.
The interesting situation occurs when you assert your right to fly without presenting an ID and then they take your DL and involuntarily take down the info. The screener would violate the Privacy Act (not a big deal for Chertoff) but the cop could do it after articulating reasonable suspicion, which, of course, they could say they have based on your insistence of exercising your rights.
But, here's an additional rub: Can a cop demand to see your DL to run you for a situation that is NOT a traffic-related incident?
ETA - A LEO can run a Wants/Warrants check without a physical identification document. They will ask you for additional information to validate who you are in the system (name, DOB, SSN, etc.).
Jun 9, 2008, 4:05 pm
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