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Old Aug 8, 09, 5:46 am   #1
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Question Different kinds of ballistic nylon?

I have a fairly good idea about the differences between 1050d ballistic nylon (the good stuff), 1680d ballistic (the lesser stuff) and 1000d Cordura nylon. However, I am not sure how 2520d is made and what its qualities are. I know Briggs and Riley as well as Delsey use it, and many other companies, too.

I googled and couldn't find anything but bag adverts. Very boring! Does anyone know?

Till
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Old Aug 8, 09, 7:05 am   #2
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RedOxx had an explanation of what they use on their site. I know whatever it is, doesn't wear out.
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Old Aug 8, 09, 7:53 am   #3
  
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Also Darcy, from Tom Bihn, was on here when the tristar first started shipping, and there was an incomprehensible (to me ) discussion about qualities of various kinds of ballistic nylon.
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Old Aug 8, 09, 9:27 am   #4
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I believe that the number (1050 etc) is mass in grams of 9000 meters of thread. That is why B&R is to a first approximation, indestructible and why it is such a great value compared to say Tumi, which uses lighter fabric. There are some issues with the 1600 denier however with abrasion compared to the 1050. The 1050 was the original Dupont ballistic nylon. The name was because they had intended it to be bulletproof. It wasnt. It is also why B&R is heavier, and one could argue that it is overkill and not worth the weight. Opinions vary on that, even in my case, within the same person

Also, on a per weight basis many think that the 1050 is the best. Dupont Cordura (1000 denier) is a newer fabric that is generally considered slightly superior to 1050D although it apparently has some properties not as good as 1050D. Red Oxx uses Cordura. In addition to weight of the fabric, there are of course differences in the quality based on who makes it. I actually think that B&R should continue to use the 2520D in their rollers and switch to 1050D or Cordura in their hand carry bags. Also, I think that the D and the end is for Dupont, who makes the best ballistic nylon.

There is a discussion comparing Cordura and 1050D on this bulletin board with a post from.... Tom Bihn himself.

Last edited by GadgetFreak; Aug 8, 09 at 9:41 am
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Old Aug 8, 09, 1:30 pm   #5
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Thanks for the replies and links so far. I have read those sources and that's how I learned about the 1050, 1680 and Cordura differences. But they are scarce sources for 2520 info. The D in my opinion is the abbreviation for denier, which as Gadget freak explained is a weight measure per yarn length. Nylon stockings for example are somewhere between 30 and 100d, ranging from very sheer (30) to practically opaque (100).

The main difference between ballistic and cordura is that one is more tear resistant (ballistic) and the other more abrasion resistant (cordura). In the real world these differences should be moot. Even 1680 should do. Also ballistic is shiny because it is one big smooth filament thread (a single strand at least for 1050d type) whereas cordura is soft because it is a textured yarn (multiple short fiber strands spun together not unlike cotton or wool). So the look and feel is different. In 1680 material they take 2x840 or 4x420 filaments and spin them together.

http://www.codi-inc.com/adv_1050d_Ballistic.pdf

The report in the link above is very informative if not necessarily from a neutral source. They say 1050d is the thickest fiber available. If that's true and if other available strengths include 840 and 2520, then I suppose that 2520 is 3x840, because a single 2520d yarn would probably not be very flexible anymore.

So basically, if that's the case, the question comes up whether between 2520d (3x840) and 1050d, the 1050d is still the winner as it is when compared to 1680d (2x840).

From reading their technical description, which I should have save because now their website is down, the Andiamo Bravo line was made out of (4!) yarns of 1050d. Whereas the Valoroso line was a weave of 3 1050d ballistic yarns in one direction and 2 1000d cordura yarns in the other direction, which would quite certainly place the Valoroso and Bravo materials at the top of the food chain so to say but also make them heavier, as can be seen in a comparison with other luggage brands.

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Old Aug 8, 09, 2:04 pm   #6
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Originally Posted by tfar View Post
Thanks for the replies and links so far. I have read those sources and that's how I learned about the 1050, 1680 and Cordura differences. But they are scarce sources for 2520 info. The D in my opinion is the abbreviation for denier, which as Gadget freak explained is a weight measure per yarn length. Nylon stockings for example are somewhere between 30 and 100d, ranging from very sheer (30) to practically opaque (100).

The main difference between ballistic and cordura is that one is more tear resistant (ballistic) and the other more abrasion resistant (cordura). In the real world these differences should be moot. Even 1680 should do. Also ballistic is shiny because it is one big smooth filament thread (a single strand at least for 1050d type) whereas cordura is soft because it is a textured yarn (multiple short fiber strands spun together not unlike cotton or wool). So the look and feel is different. In 1680 material they take 2x840 or 4x420 filaments and spin them together.

http://www.codi-inc.com/adv_1050d_Ballistic.pdf

The report in the link above is very informative if not necessarily from a neutral source. They say 1050d is the thickest fiber available. If that's true and if other available strengths include 840 and 2520, then I suppose that 2520 is 3x840, because a single 2520d yarn would probably not be very flexible anymore.

So basically, if that's the case, the question comes up whether between 2520d (3x840) and 1050d, the 1050d is still the winner as it is when compared to 1680d (2x840).

From reading their technical description, which I should have save because now their website is down, the Andiamo Bravo line was made out of (4!) yarns of 1050d. Whereas the Valoroso line was a weave of 3 1050d ballistic yarns in one direction and 2 1000d cordura yarns in the other direction, which would quite certainly place the Valoroso and Bravo materials at the top of the food chain so to say but also make them heavier, as can be seen in a comparison with other luggage brands.

Till
You are probably correct that the D is for denier not Dupont. I need to check some B&R to see if I can find more info on a a label. When I first started getting nice luggage about 10 years ago I did a lot of research on this type stuff (mostly forgotten since ). I do remember I decided to get either B&R or Andiamo based on that but I had a terrible time finding the latter and couldnt get much of a selection. I also found a place, no longer with the same ownership, in New York that was an authorized B&R dealer and would deal very aggressively if you pushed them. Although it was amusing to see other people in the store paying list at the same time I was getting like 30% off for the same stuff.

Last edited by GadgetFreak; Aug 8, 09 at 2:11 pm
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Old Aug 8, 09, 2:46 pm   #7
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I just looked at A. Saks, and see that it says 420 denier nylon. Where is that in the hierarchy of ruggedness?
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Old Aug 8, 09, 2:50 pm   #8
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Originally Posted by SanDiego1K View Post
I just looked at A. Saks, and see that it says 420 denier nylon. Where is that in the hierarchy of ruggedness?
Lots less than the others we are talking about here, but a lot lighter too. I think we have hit the eternal rule, this time in the form of:

There is cheap, light and durable. Pick any two

Although on the other hand, as was pointed out in a couple of the places I read, stuff like 1050d and Cordura is incredibly tough and more than is needed for a lot of things. As an example, on a link that tfar posted they showed how their competitors strap broke under 200 pounds weight and theirs didnt. But, when was the last time your carry on weighed in at 200 pounds. Im sucking air lugging 30 pounds through DFW.
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Old Aug 8, 09, 3:09 pm   #9
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Originally Posted by SanDiego1K View Post
I just looked at A. Saks, and see that it says 420 denier nylon. Where is that in the hierarchy of ruggedness?
Just as a reference, 420d nylon is what the Valoroso line uses as a lining on the inside of the bag.

That said, the stuff is rugged enough to be used on the outside. And what Andiamo uses as a lining is not a ballistic weave. What A. Saks uses looks different, so it is probably a different weave and the 420d is just a weight indicator. I wouldn't be worried about the durability or hardiness of the A. Saks line especially if you don't check the bag. Of course, it won't be as rugged as BR, Tumi or Andiamo but you have to look at the weight and the price, too. It weighs a third and costs a fifth of their products.

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Old Aug 8, 09, 9:46 pm   #10
  
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Victorinox Architecture?

Does anyone know what sort of ballistic nylon Victorinox Architecture 2.0 is made out of. I can't see it on the webpage?
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Old Aug 9, 09, 1:48 am   #11
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Does anyone know what sort of ballistic nylon Victorinox Architecture 2.0 is made out of. I can't see it on the webpage?
I don't know. But YOU have MY screen name!

Welcome to FT!

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Old Aug 9, 09, 5:00 am   #12
  
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Well, sorry about that Till. But first come etc - I was going to go with 'bagaholic' - maybe I could suggest that for you?

Of all the gurus here, I thought YOU, Till, might have the answer to my Vict question, but sadly apparently not. It would be interesting to know because the Vict stuff weighs in at around the same as most B&R luggage of equivalent type: eg., Vict Rolling Trevi and B&R Computer Multi-case.

The B&R stuff is difficult to get in Oz other than by airmail (which is how I get my Vict stuff anyway from LuggagePlanet because they have good international shipping) but I have not bothered with the B&R because of all the rolling computer bags I have had so far, the Vict Rolling Trevi fits my needs best in terms of organization, pockets etc. The two rear pockets are excellent as is the front compartment.
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Old Aug 9, 09, 10:08 am   #13
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Well, sorry about that Till. But first come etc - I was going to go with 'bagaholic' - maybe I could suggest that for you?

Of all the gurus here, I thought YOU, Till, might have the answer to my Vict question, but sadly apparently not. It would be interesting to know because the Vict stuff weighs in at around the same as most B&R luggage of equivalent type: eg., Vict Rolling Trevi and B&R Computer Multi-case.

The B&R stuff is difficult to get in Oz other than by airmail (which is how I get my Vict stuff anyway from LuggagePlanet because they have good international shipping) but I have not bothered with the B&R because of all the rolling computer bags I have had so far, the Vict Rolling Trevi fits my needs best in terms of organization, pockets etc. The two rear pockets are excellent as is the front compartment.
I had a cursory look around the web and thought it should be easy to find. But no, and you certainly did that anyway. Unfortunately, I have never seen one in person but from the looks of it the Architecture 2.0 series is one of the most interesting series Victorinox has. I'd think it's 2520 or 1050. The Tourbach series has a different material, though. By the way, in the Tourbach series I have recently seen the East/West Hybrid garment bag on sale. Looks like a very interesting 22" roller.

It's good you found a computer bag that suits your needs. Not an easy task even with the hundreds of versions out there.

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Old Aug 17, 10, 8:22 am   #14
  
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Hope this helps....

I'm the product manager at CODi Incorporated and I noticed our materials research was referenced in this thread. I wanted to take the opportunity to shed some additional light on this subject. My email is under my profile if anyone has further questions and would like to speak to me directly.

First and foremost, Denier is a unit of measure for the linear mass density of fibers. It is defined as the mass in grams per 9,000 meters. The term denier is a literal combination of the words linear and density.

You are correct when stating the D stands for Denier, not Dupont. With that said, there are 4 main yarn sizes used to make manmade fabric.

210D;
420D;
840D;
1050D;

210D is usually only used for lining. 420, 840, and 1050, are mainly used as exterior materials.

Obviously, the larger the yarn size, the more durable the man-made fabric will be.

Determining the quality of the fabric is basically just simple math. (the four most popular man-made fabrics you'll see on the market are 1680, 1682, 840, and 1050)

1680D uses 4 strands of 420 yarn.

1682D uses 4 strands of 420 yarn, but there are 3 twists of the yarn bundle per CM in length
- (If you take a 1 foot strand of rope, then take an identical strand and twist it 3 times per CM, you will get more rope per foot of twisted vs. the non-twisted, which would make the twisted stronger.)

840D uses two strands of 840D yarn twisted, so it's "technically" a twisted 1680D, but being that the industry calls four strands of 420D 1680D, I believe they just keep it as 840D to avoid confusion. I don't create the terms used in the industry so I'm not 100% sure why they went this route.

1050D uses 2 strands of 1050D yarn twisted. So it's technically 2100D but the industry still calls it 1050D, (this is what we use in all our cases).

To respond to the original question in this thread, I'm not exactly sure about 2520 nylon. The math would tell me that 2520D is either 6 strands of 420D, or 3 strands of 840D. My intuition tells me it's 3 strands of 840D as "tfar" stated, only because it would be more difficult to weave 6 strands of 420D, and using the 420D yarn would actually be less durable since it's a smaller yarn size.

Keep in mind when purchasing and researching the different man-made fabrics, the fabric itself is only as good as the wear/tear of the yarn. And by twisting during production, there is 'more' yarn in the same area making it stronger.

Some points to consider when researching/buying cases based on material.

Twisting creates more density/mass/denier making the fabric stronger.
Twisting also creates more surface area which improves wear/tear and abrasion results
Different backings can improve fabric wear, but will not improve yarn wear.
Polyester yarns are often called ballistic nylon, which is common in lesser quality products. Wear/tear of polyester is far worse than actual Nylon.

I hope this helps and as I stated earlier, my email is under my profile so please don't hesitate to contact me directly with any questions you may have. Lastly, here's the link to our white paper again for your reference. http://www.codi-inc.com/adv_1050d_Ballistic.pdf
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Old Jul 1, 13, 8:59 pm   #15
  
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Trying to figure out which Suitcase is better from the material:

Travelpro Crew 8 28 Inch Expandable Rollaboard Suiter with the 1050D Micro-Ballistic Nylon Fabric With Duraguard Coating

or the

Travelpro Crew 9 28-Inch Expandable Rollaboard Suiter Bag with the 2000d twist nylon fabric with duraguard
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