Massachusetts may tax drivers' mileage using GPS chips?
Feb 19, 2009, 11:43 pm
#16
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You already pay for use of the road through all the taxes on each gallon of gas; which may be going up in CA by .12 per gallon.
If they follow in Oregon's footsteps then they will also charge you more for driving during rush hour. The charges would be collected electronically when you fill up at the gas station.
If they follow in Oregon's footsteps then they will also charge you more for driving during rush hour. The charges would be collected electronically when you fill up at the gas station.
Funny that hasn't stopped all the people signing up for EZ-Pass or similar "tracking" devices for paying for toll roads.
Feb 20, 2009, 4:34 am
#17
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You already pay for use of the road through all the taxes on each gallon of gas; which may be going up in CA by .12 per gallon.
If they follow in Oregon's footsteps then they will also charge you more for driving during rush hour. The charges would be collected electronically when you fill up at the gas station.
If they follow in Oregon's footsteps then they will also charge you more for driving during rush hour. The charges would be collected electronically when you fill up at the gas station.
Feb 20, 2009, 5:09 am
#18
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I don't know about it being fair or not, but it's possibly the only practical way to do it.
Feb 20, 2009, 11:22 am
#19
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<SNIP> In 20 years, it is not out-of-the-question to think that a significant portion of vehicles on the road may be electric powered or else very-high mileage hybrids. Since highways are largely built and maintained through taxes on motor vehicle fuel, then how do you build and maintain highways when "fuel" is no longer dispensed in easy-to-measure gallons (i.e. at gas pumps)?
<SNIP> It's just funny that whenever any "tracking" technology comes on-line, you get so many people screaming about loss of privacy, loss of civil rights, and so on.
Funny that hasn't stopped all the people signing up for EZ-Pass or similar "tracking" devices for paying for toll roads.
Funny that hasn't stopped all the people signing up for EZ-Pass or similar "tracking" devices for paying for toll roads.
Feb 20, 2009, 1:54 pm
#20
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A couple of comments:
One of the problems with a state mileage tax is how to avoid taxing the driver for miles driven in another state. That's why they are proposing a GPS arrangement. An annual check of the odometer would not reveal which miles were driven where (not to mention it would spur a serious epidemic of odometer tampering). However, no system is perfect nor would it need to be. Currently state gas taxes paid at the pump benefit the state where the gas is pumped, but of course the driver is free to use that gas (and thus the roads) in another state. And vice versa.
Another drawback of a mileage tax is that if you tax at a flat rate, you eliminate some of the incentive to buy a fuel-efficient vehicle. You would still have the incentive of using less fuel, but the price of fuel would be lower so it would be a smaller incentive. A way to get around this is to institute a staggered mileage tax, based on EPA mileage rating.
Also, this is being proposed on the national level..
One of the problems with a state mileage tax is how to avoid taxing the driver for miles driven in another state. That's why they are proposing a GPS arrangement. An annual check of the odometer would not reveal which miles were driven where (not to mention it would spur a serious epidemic of odometer tampering). However, no system is perfect nor would it need to be. Currently state gas taxes paid at the pump benefit the state where the gas is pumped, but of course the driver is free to use that gas (and thus the roads) in another state. And vice versa.
Another drawback of a mileage tax is that if you tax at a flat rate, you eliminate some of the incentive to buy a fuel-efficient vehicle. You would still have the incentive of using less fuel, but the price of fuel would be lower so it would be a smaller incentive. A way to get around this is to institute a staggered mileage tax, based on EPA mileage rating.
Also, this is being proposed on the national level..
Feb 21, 2009, 5:58 pm
#21
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The California government wants their DMV equivalent to create a face-recognition technology database along with fingerprints on file for all persons issued a driver's license or state ID card. How in the world does such a walking financial wreck of a state budget find $65,000,000 to justify such junk at a time like this?
Feb 21, 2009, 7:49 pm
#22
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GPS has other uses
Not only can the Commonwealth of Massachusetts use the information to assess mileage but they can also track the citizens traveling to New Hampshire to buy gasoline, tobacco, and liquor to avoid paying Mass tax. The State could also use the GPS information to find people working under the table and not paying state income taxes. It will be great for the State to monitor and control these people who are not behaving correctly.
The only alternative would be to recall the Governor. Unfortunately you can only recall your governor if you're from one of the following states: Alaska, Arizona, California, Colorado, Georgia, Idaho, Kansas, Louisiana, Michigan, Minnesota, Montana, Nevada, New Jersey, North Dakota, Oregon, Rhode Island, Washington and Wisconsin.
I guess you're out of luck in Massachusetts!
The only alternative would be to recall the Governor. Unfortunately you can only recall your governor if you're from one of the following states: Alaska, Arizona, California, Colorado, Georgia, Idaho, Kansas, Louisiana, Michigan, Minnesota, Montana, Nevada, New Jersey, North Dakota, Oregon, Rhode Island, Washington and Wisconsin.
I guess you're out of luck in Massachusetts!
Feb 25, 2009, 6:55 pm
#23
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Why not just raise the gas tax instead?
It's already been proposed here, although fortunately it was a non-starter.
I'm going to quote something I wrote on this issue in a blog comment:
So yeah, it's a dumb idea.
Using GPS is unnecessary too; you could just ask for odometer readings at each registration renewal (as DeafFlyer has already pointed out.)
They can just as easily photograph your plates at the tollbooths. And as an only-occasional user of ETC ("Fasttrack" out here, however it's spelled) the ETC transponder stays in a drawer at home when I don't plan to be crossing bridges.
Well, you could put voluntary odometer-check stations at the entrances and exits to the state...
It's already been proposed here, although fortunately it was a non-starter.
I'm going to quote something I wrote on this issue in a blog comment:
For crying out loud, [indexing the mileage charge by vehicle weight] is a ridiculous attempt to shoehorn some sense into a fundamentally terrible idea. JUST RAISE THE FUEL TAX! instead of all this conniving.
Fuel tax:
- pay as you go
- anonymous, and requires collection infrastructure only for a relatively limited number of fueling stations(*)
- easily paid by everyone except a TINY number of electric vehicles and do-it-yourself biodiesel folks(**)
- proportional to vehicle weight
- proportional to mechanical fuel efficiency
- proportional to the efficiency of drivers' individual habits
(* or you can even push the taxes up the chain to the distributors, for even fewer)
(** if there are no fuel taxes on some fuels like commercial biodiesel or CNG, start taxing them, it's easy enough)
Mileage tax:
- not pay as you go, so you get a deferred bill
- requires a collection infrastructure for every driver, with concomitant lack of privacy
- paid by everyone, regardless of fuel source
- can be made proportional to vehicle weight, but requires extra bookkeeping, and doesn't reflect modifications or variable cargo
- [can be made] proportional to mechanical fuel efficiency, but requires extra bookkeeping, and doesn't reflect modifications or changes in mechanical condition over time
- CANNOT be made proportional to the efficiency of drivers' individual habits without further invasion of privacy
In short, the ONLY advantages are (A) paid by everyone, regardless of fuel source, and (B) for those who think "not pay as you go" is a plus to discourage driving (or to produce a backlash against the tax and remove it entirely.)
That annoyance factor is not to be underestimated: pretty much all of us have a sense of our practical fuel economy, and can easily figure, based on the pump price, how much a trip will cost. Having to check your cents-per-mile tax statement, and then figure out the distance of your trips
As for mass transit, other than the annoyance factor (B) (which is potentially a plus, for a hypothetical "economically rational actor" since the payment is probably deferred, even if it will piss off most real humans) the incentive or disincentive to use mass transit is basically going to be the added cost of driving - for which raising the fuel taxes will have essentially the same effect.
Fuel tax:
- pay as you go
- anonymous, and requires collection infrastructure only for a relatively limited number of fueling stations(*)
- easily paid by everyone except a TINY number of electric vehicles and do-it-yourself biodiesel folks(**)
- proportional to vehicle weight
- proportional to mechanical fuel efficiency
- proportional to the efficiency of drivers' individual habits
(* or you can even push the taxes up the chain to the distributors, for even fewer)
(** if there are no fuel taxes on some fuels like commercial biodiesel or CNG, start taxing them, it's easy enough)
Mileage tax:
- not pay as you go, so you get a deferred bill
- requires a collection infrastructure for every driver, with concomitant lack of privacy
- paid by everyone, regardless of fuel source
- can be made proportional to vehicle weight, but requires extra bookkeeping, and doesn't reflect modifications or variable cargo
- [can be made] proportional to mechanical fuel efficiency, but requires extra bookkeeping, and doesn't reflect modifications or changes in mechanical condition over time
- CANNOT be made proportional to the efficiency of drivers' individual habits without further invasion of privacy
In short, the ONLY advantages are (A) paid by everyone, regardless of fuel source, and (B) for those who think "not pay as you go" is a plus to discourage driving (or to produce a backlash against the tax and remove it entirely.)
That annoyance factor is not to be underestimated: pretty much all of us have a sense of our practical fuel economy, and can easily figure, based on the pump price, how much a trip will cost. Having to check your cents-per-mile tax statement, and then figure out the distance of your trips
As for mass transit, other than the annoyance factor (B) (which is potentially a plus, for a hypothetical "economically rational actor" since the payment is probably deferred, even if it will piss off most real humans) the incentive or disincentive to use mass transit is basically going to be the added cost of driving - for which raising the fuel taxes will have essentially the same effect.
Using GPS is unnecessary too; you could just ask for odometer readings at each registration renewal (as DeafFlyer has already pointed out.)
Well, you could put voluntary odometer-check stations at the entrances and exits to the state...
Aug 12, 2009, 12:31 pm
#25
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...and you also pay for it via the gas tax. Of course, when this got raised out here in California (went nowhere, forunately) it was in the context of "fuel economy is up so we're taking in less in gas taxes." The answer there, of course, is "so raise the gas tax." Yes, normally there is a point of diminishing returns, but since diminishing returns = less traffic, less wear and tear on the road, and thus lower road maintenance costs, well, sounds like a win-win!
Aug 12, 2009, 12:47 pm
#26
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NC's plan was referred to as an Odometer tax. I never looked into it, but we have mandatory annual safety inspections and I just thought it would be billed after that since odometer reading is part of the inspection.
As it is now, NC's gas is consistently $0.20/gal more than SC's. I live 4 miles from the closest SC gas stations so that's where I go. Even if I lived farther away I still go to SC enough for family reasons that I rarely pay for more than 5 gallons a month in NC.
If NC implemented a GPS based system and SC didn't I'd just move 4 miles south back to SC.
...Then you have people like my neighbors who have 4 cars but only 3 plates. I wonder if something in the pump would see an NC plate with no GPS and catch them at their game.
As it is now, NC's gas is consistently $0.20/gal more than SC's. I live 4 miles from the closest SC gas stations so that's where I go. Even if I lived farther away I still go to SC enough for family reasons that I rarely pay for more than 5 gallons a month in NC.
If NC implemented a GPS based system and SC didn't I'd just move 4 miles south back to SC.
...Then you have people like my neighbors who have 4 cars but only 3 plates. I wonder if something in the pump would see an NC plate with no GPS and catch them at their game.
Aug 12, 2009, 12:47 pm
#27
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Well, it could be like Singapore. Need something called a Certificate of Entitlement (about S$30k) to own (or register) a car for 10 years, and then have pretty stiff taxes based on price and engine displacement (I've heard it runs up to 2-4x of the sale price). I think the engine displacement tax is annual. And then you pay for road usage (at least for zone crossing), which is set according to traffic. Of course, fuel is already very highly taxed.
Aug 12, 2009, 2:22 pm
#28
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I agree that the Big Brother aspects are both real and troubling so then why not just have everyone pay the real, unsubsidized cost for a gallon of gas?
$6/gallon [or whatever] with ~$2 going to the actual cost of the petroleum, refining, and transportation, ~$2 going to pay for roads, ~$1 going to the seller and the final $1 Going to the Pentagon for the cost of garrisoning the Mid-East.
We could then deduct the percentages of federal income taxes that now go for the Pentagon and federal highway construction and maintenance.
Oh right, the whole PR/complicated issues thing. Americans by-and-large don’t do complicated.
We could also close the loophole that allows gas-guzzling trucks, vans, and and SUV to avoid the gas-guzzler tax.
$6/gallon [or whatever] with ~$2 going to the actual cost of the petroleum, refining, and transportation, ~$2 going to pay for roads, ~$1 going to the seller and the final $1 Going to the Pentagon for the cost of garrisoning the Mid-East.
We could then deduct the percentages of federal income taxes that now go for the Pentagon and federal highway construction and maintenance.
Oh right, the whole PR/complicated issues thing. Americans by-and-large don’t do complicated.
We could also close the loophole that allows gas-guzzling trucks, vans, and and SUV to avoid the gas-guzzler tax.
Aug 12, 2009, 2:42 pm
#29
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Well, it could be like Singapore. Need something called a Certificate of Entitlement (about S$30k) to own (or register) a car for 10 years, and then have pretty stiff taxes based on price and engine displacement (I've heard it runs up to 2-4x of the sale price). I think the engine displacement tax is annual. And then you pay for road usage (at least for zone crossing), which is set according to traffic. Of course, fuel is already very highly taxed.
Aug 14, 2009, 7:43 am
#30
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