Go Back  FlyerTalk Forums > Travel&Dining > Travel News
Reload this Page >

30 dead in old age pension

30 dead in old age pension

Old Sep 8, 05, 1:39 am
  #1  
In Memoriam
Original Poster
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Switzerland/Atlanta,GA
Programs: Executive Club Gold/Frequence Plus Red
Posts: 1,756
Angry 30 dead in old age pension

Rescuers found 30 dead in an old age pension...
How sad but also enraging. Is this the wonderful US of A?
magexpect is offline  
Old Sep 8, 05, 7:48 am
  #2  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 37,486
This to me was one of the saddest things I heard out of NOL

I can understand how a single person, or small family can be "overlooked", but an entire nursing home? Terribly sad
ScottC is offline  
Old Sep 8, 05, 11:44 pm
  #3  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 13,144
Just heard it over the broadcast news an hour ago. Very very sad indeed.
Rejuvenated is offline  
Old Sep 9, 05, 6:04 am
  #4  
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: NYC
Posts: 44,551
Terrifying, too, in a personal way, since many of us have seen older family members put in nursing homes, or else we know that one day, our time will come for that, too.
anonplz is offline  
Old Sep 9, 05, 8:30 am
  #5  
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Land of ORD
Programs: AA Plat UA Premier
Posts: 8,641
Originally Posted by magexpect
Rescuers found 30 dead in an old age pension...
How sad but also enraging. Is this the wonderful US of A?
It's their own fault. They disobeyed orders to evacuate. [sarcasm off/]

The owners of that place should be criminally prosecuted for manslaughter.
SirFlysALot is offline  
Old Sep 9, 05, 9:30 am
  #6  
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: IND
Programs: Marriott Platinum, SWA CP
Posts: 577
Done

The owners of that place should be criminally prosecuted for manslaughter.
If this is the same one that was reported on CNN the other day, the owner already received the death penalty (she died in the home with the residents).
indyscott is offline  
Old Sep 9, 05, 10:29 am
  #7  
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Princeton, MO/Tonopah, AZ
Posts: 687
Originally Posted by SirFlysALot
It's their own fault. They disobeyed orders to evacuate. [sarcasm off/]

The owners of that place should be criminally prosecuted for manslaughter.
I certainly agree. It is my understanding that staff took off, not making any provisions for the elderly. The least they could have done is move them to the roof.

But the real blame lies with local and state officials. When the MANDATORY evacuation was called (pre hurricane), they should have used the school busses and city busses to evacuate the most vulnerable. They knew EXACTLY where all the nursing homes were.

Bedridden people could have been loaded in the school busses, on their mattresses, and moved to safety. School busses have large swing open back doors and four bolts hold most of the seats. And almost all city busses, in this day and age, are equipped to hold wheel chairs.

The powers that be in New Orleans had days of warning. Heaven help us if we have another situation with NO warning. I loaded my old Suburban this week with everthing I need to stay alive for at least a month. AND my animals are going with me.
greatam is offline  
Old Sep 11, 05, 8:08 am
  #8  
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: OKC/DFW
Programs: AA EXP/2 MM
Posts: 9,999
Originally Posted by greatam
The powers that be in New Orleans had days of warning.
So did state and federal officials. It's so maddening to know that these and many of the other deaths from the storm could have been prevented.
oklAAhoma is offline  
Old Sep 11, 05, 9:32 am
  #9  
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: MSY
Programs: NW Gold and now Delta Gold
Posts: 3,069
this was not in New Orleans

The St. Rita's nursing home was in St. Bernard Parish. Not under control of Orleans Parish, New Orleans mayor Ray Nagin, or any of the mythical school buses we keep hearing about from those who live nowhere near the area and know nothing about it. The mayor of New Orleans does not have the authority to go into another parish (county) and commandeer emergency resources or to bus out their old people to unknown destinations. A federal authority, such as the National Guard, might have been useful though.


I strongly advise people who do not know what they are talking about to just stop talking for a few minutes. You can air your opinions later after you've taken some time to inform yourself, or you may find your comments are unhelpful and didn't need to be shared in public at all.

Thank you.


Originally Posted by greatam
I certainly agree. The powers that be in New Orleans had days of warning. Heaven help us if we have another situation with NO warning. I loaded my old Suburban this week with everthing I need to stay alive for at least a month. AND my animals are going with me.

Last edited by peachfront; Sep 11, 05 at 9:35 am
peachfront is offline  
Old Sep 11, 05, 12:08 pm
  #10  
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: OKC/DFW
Programs: AA EXP/2 MM
Posts: 9,999
Originally Posted by peachfront
The St. Rita's nursing home was in St. Bernard Parish. Not under control of Orleans Parish, New Orleans mayor Ray Nagin, or any of the mythical school buses we keep hearing about from those who live nowhere near the area and know nothing about it. The mayor of New Orleans does not have the authority to go into another parish (county) and commandeer emergency resources or to bus out their old people to unknown destinations.
I appreciate the point you are making that in this particular instance it was not the NO mayor who should be blamed. Maybe New Orleans area officials would have been more accurate becaue IIRC St. Bernard Parish is only 5 miles from downtown NO. But doesn't St. Bernard have a mayor or councilman or someone who should have been responsible in overseeing the evacuation?

Originally Posted by peachfront
A federal authority, such as the National Guard, might have been useful though.
Particularly before the storm hit.

Originally Posted by peachfront
I strongly advise people who do not know what they are talking about to just stop talking for a few minutes. You can air your opinions later after you've taken some time to inform yourself, or you may find your comments are unhelpful and didn't need to be shared in public at all.
Hmmm. People should only air opinions that you approve and that you find helpful and well-informed? Sorry it doesn't work like that.

BTW: What evidence can you share that indicates that state and local officials, including the mayor of NO, handled the pre- and post-Katrina situations as well as they could/should have? So far all you told us was that the NO mayor wasn't responsible for clearing out the nursing home mentioned in the OP. But what about the (lack of) evacuation of the Charity Hospital before or immediately after the storm? That was another unfortuante situation in which deaths resulted and I believe the Charity Hospital is located in Orleans Parish.
oklAAhoma is offline  
Old Sep 12, 05, 8:59 am
  #11  
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: MSY
Programs: NW Gold and now Delta Gold
Posts: 3,069
you have got to be kidding

Again, I request some respect especially considering you admit you don't know the facts. Do you really think it is appropriate to pelt a refugee with several dozen questions going back over several decades of Louisiana history at a time when I have sustained serious damage to my home and am relocated several hundred miles away? Is that how your mother raised you?

There is no short, cheap easy answer to your many, many questions that are based on many, many cheap, incorrect assumptions about the ability of African-American and southern leaders. I happen to be from the area, I know the area, and I know the difficulties involved in evacuation. This was the smoothest by far of any evacuation, it got the most people out, and it built on the knowledge gained from previous evacuations. Every time there was a problem, the state and local authorities have tried to learn from the problems, and improve. The fact is, our state and local authorities saved more lives than anyone anticipated, more lives than any simulation showed to be possible under the circumstance.


It is not physically possible to evacuate everyone. Take a look at a map sometime. Based on previous experiences, officials had to assume that past a certain point, people in cars and busses would be trapped on highways and bridges, as they were in other evacuations. If Ivan had hit New Orleans, there would be thousands more dead, in their cars, on bridges and highways...but guess what. Officials learned. They did the best they could based on slowly building a body of experience and also based on the fact that these storms do turn east.

You'd be yelling just as loud if busloads of elderly people were dead on bridges and highways clogged with traffic.

The Weather Service didn't give us enough warning. The storm turned. It was going to hit the Florida/Alabama state line, remember? You cannot order an evacuation, knowing that a certain percentage of old people transported from nursing homes WILL die in transport from the stress, EVERY TIME THERE IS A STORM IN THE GULF.

Please inform yourself before parroting cheap and cruel commentary spewed by those with a political agenda.

Or take it to Omni where such garbage belongs.

I have rebuilding to do. You are sitting in your nice comfortable home offering cheap critique from far away. Why don't you count your blessings instead of attacking the less fortunate while they are down?

I don't see the need to kick people while they are down, sorry. There is a time and a place to pursue your political agenda. Putting it in the face of victims and refugees ain't it.




Originally Posted by oklAAhoma
I appreciate the point you are making that in this particular instance it was not the NO mayor who should be blamed. Maybe New Orleans area officials would have been more accurate becaue IIRC St. Bernard Parish is only 5 miles from downtown NO. But doesn't St. Bernard have a mayor or councilman or someone who should have been responsible in overseeing the evacuation?



Particularly before the storm hit.



Hmmm. People should only air opinions that you approve and that you find helpful and well-informed? Sorry it doesn't work like that.

BTW: What evidence can you share that indicates that state and local officials, including the mayor of NO, handled the pre- and post-Katrina situations as well as they could/should have? So far all you told us was that the NO mayor wasn't responsible for clearing out the nursing home mentioned in the OP. But what about the (lack of) evacuation of the Charity Hospital before or immediately after the storm? That was another unfortuante situation in which deaths resulted and I believe the Charity Hospital is located in Orleans Parish.
peachfront is offline  
Old Sep 12, 05, 10:39 am
  #12  
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: OKC/DFW
Programs: AA EXP/2 MM
Posts: 9,999
peachfront I am terribly sorry you have lost your property. As I am terribly sorry that many friends, family members, and whole bunch of people I don't know lost lives and property during the storm.

You made a lot of incorrect assumptions and some rather extreme accusations in your previous post... but I realize you have been through a very stressful situation recently. A situation that I know that I can't truly comprehend. However, I think you are being unfair when you assume that no one from outside the region (including me) has the right to hold an opinion about this.

While I am sincerely glad to hear that the evacuation went well for you, I am saddened that it did not go so well for my best friend's mother, for her husband (a fireman) who worked round the clock to rescue people in NO, and for a host of friends and family in LA and Mississippi. While I wasn't there myself, I have their first hand accounts of the situation and I'll just leave it by saying that their version is much different than yours.

Good luck with your rebuilding. I hope that you and your family are able to recover from this as quickly as possible.
oklAAhoma is offline  
Old Sep 14, 05, 9:21 am
  #13  
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Land of ORD
Programs: AA Plat UA Premier
Posts: 8,641
Originally Posted by SirFlysALot
It's their own fault. They disobeyed orders to evacuate. [sarcasm off/]

The owners of that place should be criminally prosecuted for manslaughter.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4243966.stm

"The owners of a nursing home outside New Orleans have been charged with manslaughter over the deaths of 34 people during Hurricane Katrina.

The married couple who ran St Rita's home are accused of ignoring mandatory orders to evacuate residents, whose bodies were found last week.

These are believed to be the first criminal neglect charges laid in connection with the flood disaster. "
SirFlysALot is offline  
Old Sep 14, 05, 5:41 pm
  #14  
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: OKC/DFW
Programs: AA EXP/2 MM
Posts: 9,999
Originally Posted by SirFlysALot
"... These are believed to be the first criminal neglect charges laid in connection with the flood disaster. "
From the article: "Thirty-four people drowned in a nursing home when it should have been evacuated - I cannot say it any plainer than that," said Louisiana Attorney General Charles Foti."

The owners allegedly turned down an offer from local officials to take the patients out by bus and did not bother to call in an ambulance service with which they had a contract, Mr Foti added.[/i]

I guess I still don't understand why the officials didn't follow up on this. I realize that a *mandatory* evacuation isn't literally mandatory and that people can and do choose to disregard such an order. But (most of) the people in the nursing home were in no position to make that choice for themselves.

At any rate, it is simply heartbreaking to learn the details of these and other similar stories.
oklAAhoma is offline  
Old Sep 15, 05, 2:06 am
  #15  
SPM
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 118
I am not a US resident, but I do have the following questions.

Is the owner of the nursing home any more culpable than the state and national governments, or the staff any more culpable than the police force?

The owner at least stayed and died with the occupants, which is more than the state and federal authorities seem to have done.

The staff did what a large proportion of the police force seems to have done when they didn't turn up for work, In all probability, they went home to ride out the storm with their families and could not make it back to work because of the flooding. I am not sure if it would have made any difference if they had stayed. I am not sure if this is correct, but I read in the papers that they died mainly because of the heat and lack of water. Moving them to the roof would not have done any good - the important failure is the failure to evacuate by helicopter.

As for evacuating the occupants before the hurricane, was this really practical given the caos before the storm? Did state and federal governments organise bussing out occupants of hospitals and nursing homes before the hurricane? Using public transport or private vehicles to bus them out wouldn't really be practical in the caos before the storm.

What really amazed me about this disaster was how foreign journalists were able to fly out from London, hire a car and drive straight to the superbowl, but the state and federal authorities seemed to be unable to do the same thing with water bottles, medical aid and vehicles for evacuation until a week after the journalists. The superbowl was the official evacuation center. I can just imagine the priority that what places that weren't official evacuation centers would have received.

One other question: why did the water supply fail? Were the pumping stations/treatment plants underwater? Was it due to power failure at the pumping stations? Was it turned off because the reservoirs were contaminated? If the water supply worked in spite of the flooding, the number of deaths would have been greatly reduced.
SPM is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search Engine: