greggwiggins

"There is new evidence passengers using mobile phones endanger aircraft, according to a Civil Aviation Authority report obtained by BBC News Online.

In tests, compasses froze or overshot, navigation bearings were inaccurate and there was interference on radio channels."


BBC reports about a study of what happens in the cockpit when a phone is turned on in the cabin.

The story is at:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/2992973.stm

NoStressHere

You will have a hard time convincing me of the problem. Seems like everytime I fly somebody has their phone on, often multiple people. They put it in their bag and forget about it. And I usually fly in first so we are close to the cockpit. So, if the 15-20,000 flights a day or over 6 MILLION flights a year are flying with phones left on, often in error, how come planes are not falling out of the sky?

aisleorwindow

Famous last words...

------------------
"I just wanna wish you good luck, we're all counting on you"
-Dr. Rumack

JohnAx

The linked article has a couple of cutesy anectodes and zero facts - tabloid journalism. There's always the chance that a malfuncting phone might emit something of a nature and on a frequency that might get into aircraft navcom systems, and there's no basic reason why we shouldn't all turn 'em off, but as noted, zillions of us forget and as yet, the biggest issue seems to be crew rage when a passenger doesn't play along.

There was a real study by Boeing a couple of years ago - sorry I didn't keep a link - trying to reproduce and assess "danger" from on-board passenger electronics based on actual aircrew reports, specific devices, specific bad reactions. Boeing was able to reproduce exactly zero of the effects the aircrews had reported.

richard

Yeah, this "danger" is ridiculous. People consistently use cellphones in the air. If it really caused problems, there would be crashes.

This and the "portable electronic devices" bogeyman are entertaining and they give FAs something to do I guess.

RichG

Stories about airborne cell phone danger and their likely apocryphal nature notwithstanding, airborne cell phone use is prohibited by the FCC, as opposed to the FAA, in the United States, for entirely legitimate technical reasons related to the design of cell phone base station systems and their interconnections.

Considering all the announcements, there's really no excuse for forgetting to turn one off, especially for a Frequent Flyer. In my case I simply developed the habit of always making a call after boarding (assuring the phone is in my pocket and not packed away in my carry-on), and then turning it off. Even if your habit is to gab away until they make the announcement, at least it does then get turned off.

IJK

I don't believe the hubris of these posters.

The danger is in talking during taxi, takeoff
or descent, where major the major traffic is,
and the chance and danger of miscommunication
and misnavigation are the greatest.

Have any of you read the reports? Have you
noted that the report states that the tests
(experiments) did not duplicate any of the
wildly varying conditions inside an plane's fuselage? (see Section 3.3) They did not
even try, for very practical reasons.

These 'tests' do not, and can not, come even
close to duplicating real life situations in
an aircraft. Believe me, RF sensitivity is
a very difficult item to measure, except
under very controlled conditions, such as
a near field response, without an enclosed
fuselage, actual aircraft wiring, etc., as
in an aircraft.

Yes, a few phones not turned off can cause
some problems from time to time, but there
should be NO argument from anyone claiming
they should be allowed to use THEIR phone,
without allowing 200 people to use theirs,
all at the same time, as long they possibly
can (no matter how much they screw up the
cell networks while flying at altitude), not
to mention the navigation and communication
problems and dangers all these phones could
cause while being used all at the same time.

And how much consideration has been given to
the fact that phones transmit at maximum
power when the reception conditions get poor
(such as with closed doors and altitude),
and that they often fall back to analog mode
which transmits at much greater power than
the regular digital mode?

I hope that these posts are not made out of
ignorance, or selfishness, or both.

Sorry to rant, but you guys should know a lot
better (and be more cognizant and concerned)
than the general riff-raff responding to the
same article on MSN's news talkback feature.

Even on MSN, there were quite a few sane
responses that outlined how empty the
naysayer's were.

IJK

Sorry, it wasn't MSN, it was ZDnet. But still
tied in with the Microsoft empire...

Mr. July

Actually, both agencies have regulations - see http://wireless.fcc.gov/services/cel.../aircraft.html

RichG is absolutely right about the basis for the FCC rules (which, for example, prohibit use while off the ground - vs. the 'when the aircraft door is closed' - and while aboard balloons, not just airplanes). Also, the FCC rules only apply to traditional cellular services - not the newer services like PCS or SMR (i.e. Nextel).

My experience is that FAA traditionally takes a very hard line on radiofrequency (RF) matters - pretty much for the reasons IJK cites. Even where there is no predicted or observed RF interference, FAA is sometimes not convinced and can and will cite the unique and often untestable enviornments on aircraft and the safety of life issues at hand. I suspect that there are many in the agency who would prohibit the in-flight use of ANY electronic device if they could, just to be 'safe'

Until or unless there is more 'proof' on this matter, it seems that there's a type of balancing going on. Right now, it's skewed to the safe side, which probably makes sense given the fact that you can't really use phones (for talking, at least) while 5 miles up. Of course, it's been noted that planes aren't dropping out of the sky and people can and do leave their phones on pretty routinely. If there were crashes directly linked to cell phone use, then I'm sure the FAA would adopt a more hard-line approach, like requiring that cell phones be transported like firearms - checked and unloaded (i.e. off).

Because cell phones are too important to people, and because the type of incidents are anecdotal and pretty difficult to duplicate, my guess is that we'll remain in this fuzzy state for some time to come. A lot of people will continue to be extremely frustrated - either because they don't see what the big deal is, or because we're not doing everything we can to eliminate a potential threat and they witness people breaking the rule left and right.

(edited for typo)

[This message has been edited by Mr. July (edited 05-07-2003).]

JohnAx

The cellphone thing is completely irrational. If safety from rf interference with aircraft systems were the issue, we'd all be required to keep our laptops stowed.

zippyh

Here's the CAA study referenced in the article.

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAPAP2003_03.PDF

Doppy

I doubt your laptop is transmitting with the same intensity as your cell phone.

d

greggwiggins

And you are required to keep your laptop stowed at low altitudes; likely the times when interference would be most critical.

Doppy

From the CAA study:

us2

First, the study tested only general aviation avionics, which are not up to the standards of commercial airliners. A phone 30 cm from equipment is only going to happen in a large civil aircraft if the phone is being used in the cockpit, and this is already banned by the "sterile cockpit" rule on departure and approach. It seems the study, as it stands now, would be relevant only for the pilots of smaller aircraft operating under IFR.

Phones should definitely be off for autoland operations and low ceiling/ visibility ILS approaches, just to be on the safe side.