The war is never over until you give in http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

I have read this thread completely. I have also read similar threads in the past few days. As with any discussion I am able to gain valuable insight from each side.

However, I am most concerned in the attitiudes of those who would just sit idly by and do nothing but accept the will of the government or any authoritative figure without question in the name of (insert cause here). I do not wish to mention anyone by name as that would only cause another barrage of argumentative posts.

To those people, you know who you are, I would like to qoute one of our founding fathers, Thomas Jefferson. I will let his words speak for me as I beleive he says it far better then I ever could.

"The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain
occasions, that I wish it to be always kept alive. It will often be
exercised when wrong, but better so than not to be exercised at
all. I like a little rebellion now and then. It is like a storm in the
atmosphere." --Thomas Jefferson to Abigail Adams, 1787. FE
4:370

rawbert


[This message has been edited by rawbert (edited 12-01-2002).]

Amen. Thomas Jefferson speaks for many of us. The "government is always right" folks are obviously too young to remember the governmental abuses of the '60s and the '70s (and certainly too young to remember Thomas Jefferson!). The people who get nervous watching the government grow ever more powerful are older and wiser, in my opinion. You know where I am on this issue!

Bruce

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/thumbsup.gif

This is certainly true. However, the right to resist government is not congruent to making resistance automatically appropriate.

I fully support your right to resist; in this instance I merely think you are seriously misguided.

The reason we have a voting booth is to correct inequities in government, to elect officials who believe the same things you do. If you are incapable of getting people elected who see things as you do, it means that your viewpoint is out of touch with the majority of the population. At that point, your resistance is merely extremism, or fanaticism, rather than participation in the democratic process.

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"Give me Liberty or give me Death." - Patrick Henry

Yes, those folks who wanted to end slavery, give women the right to vote, end child labor, etc. were extremists too until they got these "radical" changes passed, eh Brian?



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"Give me Liberty or give me Death." - Patrick Henry

Yes, they were. Then they were mainstreamed, as the majority ultimately agreed with them. Until then, they risked being ostracized or incarcerated, so they chose their battles carefully.

Of course, for every one of the examples you mentioned, there are many others whose cause is relegated to the dustbin of irrelevancy. If you are willing to make the sacrifices of extremism/fanaticism, more power to you.

Quotes... I love quotes....

Wherever there is authority, there is a natural inclination to disobedience.
-Thomas Haliburton

You are sure you don't just have a general problem with authority figures?



[This message has been edited by Brian (edited 12-01-2002).]

Being an extremist doesn't make you automatically wrong. It just makes you an extremist.

The association of extremism and fanaticism with a negative connotation is a matter of choice of words. If we used the term "totally dedicated to the cause", I bet you wouldn't have a problem with being described that way.

Nevertheless, you do fit the description of an extremist in your willingness to jump to conclusions, exorciate an entire group based on anecdotes, and unwillingness to recognize facts contrary to the ideology.

You certainly have embellished on the meaning of extremist here. I really don't see any of your examples as being descriptive of an extremist. In the true sense of the word, you are also extreme in your views. Perhaps even more so than Spiff or Bruce.

I think the correct word for describing Spiff, Bruce and others' views would be radical:

From Webster:
3 a : marked by a considerable departure from the usual or traditional : EXTREME b : tending or disposed to make extreme changes in existing views, habits, conditions, or institutions c : of, relating to, or constituting a political group associated with views, practices, and policies of extreme change d : advocating extreme measures to retain or restore a political state of affairs <the radical right>

Even using that term instead does not mean that their views and opinions are not valid or fact based.

You're right. My opinion is that Spiff is both an extremist

extremism

n : any political theory favoring immoderate uncompromising policies

As well as an alarmist when it comes to civil rights implications

a·larm·ist
n.
A person who needlessly alarms or attempts to alarm others, as by inventing or spreading false or exaggerated rumors of impending danger or catastrophe.

Not to mention a radical, by your dictionary definition.

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As for myself, since my opinion is echoed by the mainstream, I can't be a radical. I'm not sure about extremism, especially since my political beliefs are centered around "rule of law" and "due process" rather than any specific policy.

Maybe "holier than thou" would fit pretty well. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/rolleyes.gif

Bruce

I don't see that he has been inventing or spreading false rumors here. Many of the things he has commented on are very well documented in the news. Actually, I think the TSA better fits that description.

I am also not so sure your opinion is echoed by the mainstream or, whether the 'mainstream' you speak of has been adequatedly exposed to and informed of the practices and problems with the TSA as it is being operated currently. This is all very, very new and the policies are always changing.

I do believe you fit that description as much if not more than Spiff does.

And there you give me more insight into your personality that I ever needed. So, you wish for arrest for someone who disagrees with you? Yup, that's real American and patriotic. Of course, that's not what will happen.

Instead, what will happen is that folks with high scores will be subject to more extensive searches and questioning.

Can you please tell me again how are you working to protect my freedom when you wish for me to get locked up? Hmmm. Interesting logic there.

Tell me, Bruce. Just when do you think it would be okay to forget about those things? Those things are 30, 40 years old! I was barely alive when that nonsense took place. Hey, maybe we should all hoard our pennies in a matress, too, since we can't forget about the Depression. Maybe we should be careful about the Brits, too, because they torched DC.