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Declining Tourism to the US

Declining Tourism to the US

Old Apr 11, 2012, 9:32 am
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I have plenty of anecdotal evidence from people from MidEast and Pakistan who used to visit US almost every year but no longer do so. At one conference in Malaysia one Saudi delegate told me he had come earlier to Malaysia for his honeymoon. Previously he used to visit the Us regularly. His words were "if we go the US now we are treated as criminals, but when we come to Malaysia we are welcomed".

Perhaps these are the types of tourists that teh US authorities no longer wish to entertain, but they are high spending and more than welcomed in many places in the far east. In places like Malaysia and Singapore they can enjoy the same comforts as the US (and cheap shopping).
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Old Apr 11, 2012, 9:54 am
  #62  
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Yeah, having spent a lot of time in Malaysia I can assure you that the feelings for Saudi visitors is neither as warm as it once was and far cooler in the first place than the Saudis ever imagined.
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Old Apr 11, 2012, 3:12 pm
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Originally Posted by hfly
Yeah, having spent a lot of time in Malaysia I can assure you that the feelings for Saudi visitors is neither as warm as it once was and far cooler in the first place than the Saudis ever imagined.
Yet the welcome there is still infinitely warmer than in the US.
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Old Apr 11, 2012, 3:55 pm
  #64  
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Really, how so? Have any Malaysian friends and speak to them about how they feel about the "invasion" of Gulf tourists over the last decade or so? At first it was a boon, but as the original waves of Saudi honeymooners and the like were much replaced by hoardes of young (and not so young) Saudi and Kuwaiti men looking for hookers and drugs and being much worse acting than many of their western counterparts ever were, their opinion has changed. Are they treated better now in general? Sure. Were they treated better even before 9/11? Yes in general they were. However it should be noted that the Malaysians can be far more unfriendly to Saudis at immigration especially single men after 9/11 as it was discovered that many of the 9/11 conspirators had met in Malaysia.

In any case this conversation is a bit silly, Saudis never went to the US for Honeymoons or quick jaunts, they did and do so in Southeast Asia. For 99% of Saudis these are NOT interchangable destinations.
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Old Apr 11, 2012, 5:17 pm
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Originally Posted by hfly
Really, how so? Have any Malaysian friends and speak to them about how they feel about the "invasion" of Gulf tourists over the last decade or so? At first it was a boon, but as the original waves of Saudi honeymooners and the like were much replaced by hoardes of young (and not so young) Saudi and Kuwaiti men looking for hookers and drugs and being much worse acting than many of their western counterparts ever were, their opinion has changed. Are they treated better now in general? Sure. Were they treated better even before 9/11? Yes in general they were. However it should be noted that the Malaysians can be far more unfriendly to Saudis at immigration especially single men after 9/11 as it was discovered that many of the 9/11 conspirators had met in Malaysia.

In any case this conversation is a bit silly, Saudis never went to the US for Honeymoons or quick jaunts, they did and do so in Southeast Asia. For 99% of Saudis these are NOT interchangable destinations.
None of which changes the fact that Saudis are more welcome in Malaysia than they are in the US. I've spent much, much time in Malaysia over the years and am quite familiar with the quirks of the place and its various peoples.
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Old Apr 11, 2012, 5:17 pm
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The "welcome" US citizens get when dealing with the US CBP types has gotten worse over the course of the last ten years, and it certainly hasn't improved for foreigners who may have the US as an option.

As a US citizen, I find that I am less likely to be poorly received when visiting Malaysia and having to deal with passport control at KUL or when going from SIN to J.B. than when returning to the US and having to deal with CBP. I doubt that GCC nationals are going to be generally better received by the CBP than I.

I am not sure how much Malaysians ordinarily appreciate Saudis (other than for the money brought in), but I do know that I'm more likely to get a warmer reception from my GCC friends if I suggest meeting up in Europe or Asia or Africa than meeting up with them in the US. It's rather unfortunate as a substantial chunk of them have lived in the US in prior years. [I would most probably not know many of them if they had not been living in the US previously.]

The GCC nationals who now live in the US (whether for school, work or permanently) seem to have far fewer siblings, cousins or friends from their home country visiting them in the US now than used to be the case even when oil prices were less than a third of what they have been at during the last five years.

That kind of suppression of tourism is a result of visas becoming harder to get and/or increased chances of getting a visa declined for reasons that have nothing to do with the individual visa applicants' actual likelihood to violate the terms of entry associated with the visas.

Bad news spreads in a way that good news rarely does. And the bad news covers the in-person dealing with US embassy/consulate facilities for visa-acquisition purposes; and it also covers having to put up with US DHS -- CBP and TSA (if connecting onward or when flying out of the US) -- and perhaps even ending up hassled on the basis of nationality if not also on the basis of ethnic and/or religious identity.

As Saudis haven't even been very popular in Pakistan -- the South Asian line often being that Saudis are (monied) hypocrites (as if any country is without hypocrites ) -- I would be surprised if they are very popular in Malaysia either. .... and yet I would be surprised if the average Saudi visitor to Malaysia would be asked as many questions by Malaysian passport control as CBP asks even some US citizens who are as free and innocent as can be.
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Old Apr 11, 2012, 5:26 pm
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Originally Posted by GUWonder
As Saudis haven't even been very popular in Pakistan -- the South Asian line often being that Saudis are (monied) hypocrites (as if any country is without hypocrites ) -- I would be surprised if they are very popular in Malaysia either. .... and yet I would be surprised if the average Saudi visitor to Malaysia would be asked as many questions by Malaysian passport control as CBP asks even some US citizens who are as free and innocent as can be.
They're not particularly popular anywhere - visit a resort town such as Phuket and watch the way that they treat servers in restaurants - I've watched them click fingers to gain attention, shout at waiters for absolutely no reason. None of which, of course, alters the opinion that I expressed in my earlier post.
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Old Apr 11, 2012, 5:54 pm
  #68  
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We are talking about 3 things here really:

1) Need for visa.
2) Questioning by border control officials.
3) Treatment in country.

These are often different things, and to different nationalities, but let's stick with the Saudis as that has now come up.

Item 1. Saudis have ALWAYS needed a visa for the US, they have not needed them in living memory for Malaysia, neither pre nor post 9/11. Pre 9/11 it was pretty easy and pain free for Saudis to get get visas to the US, interviews often were not even necessary. Post 9/11 for quite awhile it was still relatively easy, but the questioning and interview process was much more intense, then again most of the 9/11 hijackers WERE from KSA, so this was understandable. truth be told, unless a Saudi national has some link to "bad people" they get their US visa, as they always have.

Item 2. For the vast majority of travellers to much of the developing World, border control officers ask little if anything. The higher up the chain you go incomewise, the more border control officers are likely to ask questions, that is just the way it is. I have found German border control officers to be quite questioning of foreigners and Germans when coming back from certain parts of the World for example. The Dutch can be the same, as the British and much of Europe, although it does seem that Northern European countries in general are more questioning than Southern, i often attribute this to language and culture more than anything else. I do concur however that US CBP agents are more likely to question their own citizens than other OECD countries.

Item 3, treatment. Rich Saudis are tolerated wherever they go and often when acting typical engender little love from the people that serve them, whether Malaysia, Bahrain, the US, Pakistan or London. Taxi driving Saudis (or whoever) less so.
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Old Apr 11, 2012, 6:22 pm
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Originally Posted by hfly
We are talking about 3 things here really:

1) Need for visa.
2) Questioning by border control officials.
3) Treatment in country.

These are often different things, and to different nationalities, but let's stick with the Saudis as that has now come up.

Item 1. Saudis have ALWAYS needed a visa for the US, they have not needed them in living memory for Malaysia, neither pre nor post 9/11. Pre 9/11 it was pretty easy and pain free for Saudis to get get visas to the US, interviews often were not even necessary. Post 9/11 for quite awhile it was still relatively easy, but the questioning and interview process was much more intense, then again most of the 9/11 hijackers WERE from KSA, so this was understandable. truth be told, unless a Saudi national has some link to "bad people" they get their US visa, as they always have.

Item 2. For the vast majority of travellers to much of the developing World, border control officers ask little if anything. The higher up the chain you go incomewise, the more border control officers are likely to ask questions, that is just the way it is. I have found German border control officers to be quite questioning of foreigners and Germans when coming back from certain parts of the World for example. The Dutch can be the same, as the British and much of Europe, although it does seem that Northern European countries in general are more questioning than Southern, i often attribute this to language and culture more than anything else. I do concur however that US CBP agents are more likely to question their own citizens than other OECD countries.

Item 3, treatment. Rich Saudis are tolerated wherever they go and often when acting typical engender little love from the people that serve them, whether Malaysia, Bahrain, the US, Pakistan or London. Taxi driving Saudis (or whoever) less so.
It's not clear the point that you're trying to make here, but, um, ok...
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Old Apr 11, 2012, 6:57 pm
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Originally Posted by hfly
Post 9/11 for quite awhile it was still relatively easy, but the questioning and interview process was much more intense, then again most of the 9/11 hijackers WERE from KSA, so this was understandable.
No, it's not understandable, unless one supports collective punishment. I don't.
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Old Apr 11, 2012, 7:20 pm
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Originally Posted by Spiff
No, it's not understandable, unless one supports collective punishment. I don't.
^
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Old Apr 11, 2012, 7:43 pm
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I do holiday in the USA every year- twice this year but short breaks not main holiday. We go to Asia for 2-3 weeks a year plus a couple of Europe trips.

I find that service in the USA is very weak compared to Asia and recently most European destinations who now have lots of great enthusiastic staff from the former eastern bloc countries.

Plus the endless tipping in the USA is a total put off. Just charge one price to include service. I spend 700 usd a night on a room and it costs at least 50 usd to get in and out of the hotel. It's a pain.
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Old Apr 11, 2012, 8:06 pm
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The rate of US visa denials and the amount of visa delays increased for Saudi Arabia in the most recent ten calendar year period over what they were in the prior ten calendar year period. And that's with people being dissuaded from applying, including for reasons related to the US increasing the costs in time and money to apply for a visa. [For example, at this time in 2001, people in Saudi Arabia were able to routinely get US visas issued without the passport bearer having to personally spend time and money to visit a US embassy/consulate facility to get a US visa themselves; and the chances of being asked to return with more information has increased substantially too.]

With regard to Saudi Arabia and where things are headed, things are now such that Turkey is more likely to get approved sooner for the US VWP than Saudi Arabia. At this time in 2000 or 2001, the idea of Turkey getting into the VWP before Saudi Arabia would have been considered a joke by many -- its consideration is not that kind of joke any longer (in part due to Turkey's economic growth rates in recent years).

The US and Canada are far worse in pestering "dark-skinned" ethnic minority foreigners with questions on arrival (questions that often have nothing to do with the contents of their belongings) than any OECD country (English-speaking or not) or any English-speaking non-OECD country. [The UK, Australia and New Zealand try, but the US and Canada "lead" the way in being worse.] The runner up for harassment of such foreigners: Poland. Poland even as it's poorer per capita than the countries whose minorities Poland passport control types hassle rather often (even when exiting the EU Schengen zone from there to go directly to richer or poorer countries than Poland).

Trying to measure the (un)civilized nature of a state? Then try to figure out how badly the state's agents treats the targets of popular hatred. One place to look: at embassies/consulates and airports that are ports of entry, both being places where some people get (mis)treated by agents of the state.

Last edited by GUWonder; Apr 12, 2012 at 12:41 am
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Old Apr 12, 2012, 1:08 am
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Originally Posted by NPF
You're considering only the Euro; for most other currencies in the world, the dollar has weakened lately.
Most of the time between 2000 and 2011, the AUD was in the 0.70-0.80 USD range, with the odd drop to 0.50.
The AUD recently reached 1.07USD and is currently ~1.04.

I do holiday in the USA every year- twice this year but short breaks not main holiday.
The only reason I visit the US for any length of time is because my friends are there and dealing with the crap DHS thinks of is the only chance I have to see them offline.
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Old Apr 12, 2012, 2:00 pm
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Theere is no indication if the data represents just tourists.
The U.S. Travel Association, the industry trade group, had noted that the United States’ share of global travel had declined from 2000 to 2010....
While the sheer number of visitors to the United States has risen over the last 10 years, the number of travelers worldwide has grown even more in that time. As a result, the United States’ share of the total travel market is down, to 11.2 percent in 2010 from 17.3 percent in 2000.
The argument that disses the concern of decline in travel by citing the number of absolute visitors misses the point that other things remaining equal, the percentage of travelelrs to the U.S. would not show such a drastic decline of 35%.

Following are the main factors at play--those responsible for +ve change are in black and those leading to a -ve change are in red.
  1. Increasing numbers of Americans with foreign born spouses leads to increased travel.
  2. A large number of IT workers imported from abroad.
  3. Behaviour of our immigration and customs, as well as TSA. The (mis) treatment is meted out to not just foreigners, but even to returning U.S. citizens perceived to be of targeted nationaliy/ethnicity.
  4. Declining share of U.S. economy as a percentage of world GDP. IN 2001, U.S. GDP accounted for 32.24% of world GDP and 20.78% in 2011-- a 35% decline in the share.
  5. As a corollary of the share of GDP, there has been an increase in share of world trade conducted by BRIC countries. I haven' got the data on how much the U.S. share has declined as a percentage of world trade.
The number of passports issued is pretty useless data that gives us no clear indication except that more people have applied for passports.
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