To Car Seat or Not To Car Seat, That is the Question...[Merged Threads]
Aug 19, 2009, 11:41 am
#166
Suspended
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Chicago
Posts: 267
Aug 19, 2009, 2:52 pm
#168
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 270
Here is another source of data that makes for an interesting read. The study and article was from 2003, when the FAA was considering mandatory use of child restraint systems.
Effects and Costs of Requiring Child-Restraint Systems for Young Children Traveling on Commercial Airplanes
Thomas B. Newman, MD, MPH; Brian D. Johnston, MD, MPH; David C. Grossman, MD, MPH
Context: The US Federal Aviation Administration is planning a new regulation requiring children younger than 2 years to ride in approved child-restraint seats on airplanes.
Objectives: To estimate the annual number of child air crash deaths that might be prevented by the proposed regulation, the threshold proportion of families switching from air to car travel above which the risks of the policy would exceed its benefits, and the cost per death prevented.
Design: Risk and economic analyses.
Results: Child-restraint seat use could prevent about 0.4 child air crash deaths per year in the United States. Increased deaths as a result of car travel could exceed deaths prevented by restraint seat use if the proportion of families switching from air to car travel exceeded about 5% to 10%. The estimate for this proportion varied with assumptions about trip distance, driver characteristics, and the effectiveness of child-restraint seats but is unlikely to exceed 15%. Assuming no increase in car travel, for each dollar increase in the cost of implementing the regulation per round trip per family, the cost per death prevented would increase by about $6.4 million.
Conclusions: Unless space for young children in restraint seats can be provided at low cost to families, with little or no diversion to automobile travel, a policy requiring restraint seat use could cause a net increase in deaths. Even excluding this possibility, the cost of the proposed policy per death prevented is high.
Complete article here:
Pediatrics & Adolescent Medicine - Vol. 157 No. 10, October 2003;157:969-974
Thomas B. Newman, MD, MPH; Brian D. Johnston, MD, MPH; David C. Grossman, MD, MPH
Context: The US Federal Aviation Administration is planning a new regulation requiring children younger than 2 years to ride in approved child-restraint seats on airplanes.
Objectives: To estimate the annual number of child air crash deaths that might be prevented by the proposed regulation, the threshold proportion of families switching from air to car travel above which the risks of the policy would exceed its benefits, and the cost per death prevented.
Design: Risk and economic analyses.
Results: Child-restraint seat use could prevent about 0.4 child air crash deaths per year in the United States. Increased deaths as a result of car travel could exceed deaths prevented by restraint seat use if the proportion of families switching from air to car travel exceeded about 5% to 10%. The estimate for this proportion varied with assumptions about trip distance, driver characteristics, and the effectiveness of child-restraint seats but is unlikely to exceed 15%. Assuming no increase in car travel, for each dollar increase in the cost of implementing the regulation per round trip per family, the cost per death prevented would increase by about $6.4 million.
Conclusions: Unless space for young children in restraint seats can be provided at low cost to families, with little or no diversion to automobile travel, a policy requiring restraint seat use could cause a net increase in deaths. Even excluding this possibility, the cost of the proposed policy per death prevented is high.
Complete article here:
Pediatrics & Adolescent Medicine - Vol. 157 No. 10, October 2003;157:969-974
Aug 19, 2009, 5:09 pm
#169
Suspended
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Chicago
Posts: 267
NIcely put.
There were many letters to this article and discussions. One of the assumptions was that it would lead to more auto traffic. And that the kids would not be restrained in the autos. As an aside, if 30 years of pediatric surgery, I don't remember an injured child that the cops said was properly restrained in the car.
There were many letters to this article and discussions. One of the assumptions was that it would lead to more auto traffic. And that the kids would not be restrained in the autos. As an aside, if 30 years of pediatric surgery, I don't remember an injured child that the cops said was properly restrained in the car.
Aug 26, 2009, 11:28 am
#170
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 12
flying w/ or w/o carseat
Our first flight where our daughter had her own seat we brought along the car seat on the flight. Boy it was terrible - mainly b/c she couldn't use the tray table and when the person in front on her reclined - it was SO tight. The return flight home we checked the carseat and it was SO much better!!
We will be flying for the first time with 2 kids - almost 4 and 13 months in 3 weeks from Dallas to Orlando. We will be checking the car seats - we'll need them for the rental car, but certainly not taking them on the flight!
We will be flying for the first time with 2 kids - almost 4 and 13 months in 3 weeks from Dallas to Orlando. We will be checking the car seats - we'll need them for the rental car, but certainly not taking them on the flight!
Aug 26, 2009, 11:39 am
#171
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Boston environs
Programs: AAdvantage
Posts: 559
Something that I think is important to distinguish, if not using a carseat
in an airplane, is that there are two very different categories of "instead" --
1. Using the airplane seatbelt (still buying a seat for the child)
2. Having a lap-child
My impression is that #1 is often done by FT people, and that it has various
benefits, though of course there is dissent. My thoughts are that #2 is
far riskier and less comfortable for lots of people. Lots of people find that
young toddlers, let alone preschoolers, can use the airplane
seatbelt perfectly well, but I've almost
never heard from really satisfied lap-child-holders after a long flight
--LG
in an airplane, is that there are two very different categories of "instead" --
1. Using the airplane seatbelt (still buying a seat for the child)
2. Having a lap-child
My impression is that #1 is often done by FT people, and that it has various
benefits, though of course there is dissent. My thoughts are that #2 is
far riskier and less comfortable for lots of people. Lots of people find that
young toddlers, let alone preschoolers, can use the airplane
seatbelt perfectly well, but I've almost
never heard from really satisfied lap-child-holders after a long flight
--LG
Aug 26, 2009, 2:38 pm
#172
Suspended
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Chicago
Posts: 267
Our first flight where our daughter had her own seat we brought along the car seat on the flight. Boy it was terrible - mainly b/c she couldn't use the tray table and when the person in front on her reclined - it was SO tight. The return flight home we checked the carseat and it was SO much better!!
We will be flying for the first time with 2 kids - almost 4 and 13 months in 3 weeks from Dallas to Orlando. We will be checking the car seats - we'll need them for the rental car, but certainly not taking them on the flight!
We will be flying for the first time with 2 kids - almost 4 and 13 months in 3 weeks from Dallas to Orlando. We will be checking the car seats - we'll need them for the rental car, but certainly not taking them on the flight!
Would agree with LG for older kids, not younger. A car seat still the best way to go.
Last edited by FlyinHawaiian; Aug 26, 2009 at 3:07 pm Reason: quote attribution
Aug 31, 2009, 8:45 am
#173
Join Date: Jun 2005
Programs: UA 1P
Posts: 125
Hey jrhmdtraum - you're based in the US, right? So any injuries you've seen from lap infants would have been totally unrestrained (and I include "held in adults' arms" = unrestrained for these purposes), due to the FAA ban on lap-belts.
However, the australian study (... lost it now) showed that AM-SAFE lap belt extensions (that is, the industry standard elsewhere in the world, I believe with the exception of Germany, where they are also banned) are effective at restraining infants in turbulence.
I don't think anyone is doubting that car-seats are more effective than any other option, and that lap-belt extensions are not good in crash/lateral deceleration (rejected T/O, etc.), but considering lap infants in turbulence / "air pockets" do you agree with the FCC stance that lap-belt extensions should not be used? (vs. many other jurisdictions where they are mandatory).
Thanks,
Dave
Aug 31, 2009, 11:36 am
#174
Suspended
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Chicago
Posts: 267
I have no experience with seat belt extenders for kids. I tried google and could not find any pictures. As you stated, turbulence / "air pockets" is the only factor that one is really worried about on the plane.
If they are proven safe for that, then I would see no reason not.
If they are proven safe for that, then I would see no reason not.
Aug 31, 2009, 1:05 pm
#175
Join Date: Jun 2005
Programs: UA 1P
Posts: 125
I have no experience with seat belt extenders for kids. I tried google and could not find any pictures. As you stated, turbulence / "air pockets" is the only factor that one is really worried about on the plane.
If they are proven safe for that, then I would see no reason not.
If they are proven safe for that, then I would see no reason not.
http://www.atsb.gov.au/media/32773/crs_final.pdf
See Appendix B for pictures.
Important to note that I am considering only about turbulence safety (where - as far as I can tell - they basically roll the seat round completely) - the summary of results is in 3.2.1, not about crash/rapid longitudinal deceleration.
Aug 31, 2009, 2:05 pm
#176
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: France
Programs: United Plus
Posts: 1,761
Our first flight where our daughter had her own seat we brought along the car seat on the flight. Boy it was terrible - mainly b/c she couldn't use the tray table and when the person in front on her reclined - it was SO tight. The return flight home we checked the carseat and it was SO much better!!
We will be flying for the first time with 2 kids - almost 4 and 13 months in 3 weeks from Dallas to Orlando. We will be checking the car seats - we'll need them for the rental car, but certainly not taking them on the flight!
We will be flying for the first time with 2 kids - almost 4 and 13 months in 3 weeks from Dallas to Orlando. We will be checking the car seats - we'll need them for the rental car, but certainly not taking them on the flight!
Just go on Youtube and see how they could be treated...
Definitely bring your children's important safety investments to the gate and have them go down with the strollers and wheelchairs (and bravo for not using the rental car ones!)
P.S. You may want to consider using one for the smaller child since you're bringing it to the plane anyway. The FAA has changed the rules and on U.S. airplanes, you now have the right to rear-face the car seat on board. They have to move you if you can't (and no risk of kicking the seat in front!)
Aug 31, 2009, 2:23 pm
#177
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Boston environs
Programs: AAdvantage
Posts: 559
Just curious - why are you opposed to using rental car carseats? We've
rented [Hertz] and used them, many times. Just be sure to bring your own
locking clip in case it is lost, and give it a good wipe with baby-wipes in case
it is gross.
--LG
rented [Hertz] and used them, many times. Just be sure to bring your own
locking clip in case it is lost, and give it a good wipe with baby-wipes in case
it is gross.
--LG
Be sure to gate-check them though. Never check car seats in as luggage. While you can argue the safety in the air, the real risk is of your seats getting lost and/or broken in transit. Your seat could be damaged and it's not obvious, until you get into an accident!
Just go on Youtube and see how they could be treated...
Definitely bring your children's important safety investments to the gate and have them go down with the strollers and wheelchairs (and bravo for not using the rental car ones!)
P.S. You may want to consider using one for the smaller child since you're bringing it to the plane anyway. The FAA has changed the rules and on U.S. airplanes, you now have the right to rear-face the car seat on board. They have to move you if you can't (and no risk of kicking the seat in front!)
Just go on Youtube and see how they could be treated...
Definitely bring your children's important safety investments to the gate and have them go down with the strollers and wheelchairs (and bravo for not using the rental car ones!)
P.S. You may want to consider using one for the smaller child since you're bringing it to the plane anyway. The FAA has changed the rules and on U.S. airplanes, you now have the right to rear-face the car seat on board. They have to move you if you can't (and no risk of kicking the seat in front!)
Sep 2, 2009, 5:08 am
#178
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: France
Programs: United Plus
Posts: 1,761
Car seat techs advise against this because a car seat is an important piece of safety equipment, not just a convenience item. You don't know how their seats have been stored, how they've been cared for (i.e. the straps should never be soaked), what it's history is (remember that car seats are only designed to withstand ONE accident and damage isn't always obvious) and many are expired, missing parts, missing the owner's manual, could have been recalled, and so on.
Then there are some practical concerns. In my case, they arrived with an infant bucket, much too small for my child. If you read the itty, bitty writing, they never guarantee that a seat will be there. You could arrive, all tired at your destination only to have that bad news at the rental car counter...
Car rental companies usually only have buckets, convertibles and boosters. It's doubtful that they can have 5 point harnessed seats for children over 40lbs or if you're able to rear face the convertibles for children over a year. Neither are required by law but much safer for the child.
Then there are the lesser points, like the cleanliness aspect. You also know how to install your own car seat correctly (we hope). Your child is probably more comfortable in her own familiar seat and if she messes it up, no worries that you'll be charged for cleaning or repairs. Plus, some rental companies charge a mint for using these seats (you may be "exempt" from this charge because of your status). If you have the car for more than a couple of days, you could have bought an entirely new seat!
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news0...tal_seats.html
http://www.deliciousbaby.com/journal...ing-car-seats/
Other options to bringing the car seat would include borrowing them from someone you know, buying one and have it waiting for you when you get there or, and this is still not ideal, but getting one from a baby equipment rental company might be better than renting the seat from the agency. You may be able to ask them questions and make requests. I have had car seats at my parents' house for years (well, just boosters for the older two). My parents loan them to neighbors when their grandchildren visit.
But the best option, and not really an inconvenient one (from a mom who manages a car seat alone on transaltantics alone with three children) is to bring it on board, use it on the airplane and then install it in the rental car. I just did this a few weeks ago myself...
Last edited by Eclipsepearl; Sep 2, 2009 at 5:40 am
Sep 2, 2009, 12:05 pm
#179
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Boston environs
Programs: AAdvantage
Posts: 559
Well, those options aren't as good as the rental car carseat for our upcoming
flights. My parents and my ILs both do have seats for the kids, but for a
variety of reasons, this winter we will have to rent a car in a farther-away airport for the
drive to their house. Once we get to their house, we could swap out for
the seat that they have. I do plan to bring a locking clip. My 7.5yo will do
without a booster for the drive from the airport to their house (he's 51"
and sixty pounds, so in some states he's exempt already, not that I would use
that as a guideline given the choice).
Since I have the memberships, the seat doesn't cost me any $$. We're going
with Hertz, which I have found to be quite reputable/reliable. My toddler will
be a few weeks shy of 3yo when we take the trip, and I'm not shlepping a toddler seat on
the plane when there is one (two, really
) waiting for us and when a 3yo
can use the lap belt on the plane (or, if I start thinking it wise, one of those
auxiliary shoulder things with that lap belt).
Cleanliness-wise, I'd rather clean the rental seat and then leave it behind
and give a good shower when we get home, then have to clean out travel
cooties from one of our good seats.
In the unlikely event that Hertz
1. doesn't have a toddler seat
2. can't get one from a neighboring car rental in the airport after I throw
a fit
3. doesn't even have a booster seat with belt-positioning that is sub-optimal
but would work in a pinch for a 3yo
...then I will buckle him in the lap belt in the center back for a short drive
to TRU, and expect a significant car rental discount.
We recently flew from BOS to ORD and drove to Champaign-Urbana, and
rented seats with no problem (both toddler and booster, from Hertz). It may
not be for everyone, but I don't think there's a wholesale problem with the
process.
--LG
flights. My parents and my ILs both do have seats for the kids, but for a
variety of reasons, this winter we will have to rent a car in a farther-away airport for the
drive to their house. Once we get to their house, we could swap out for
the seat that they have. I do plan to bring a locking clip. My 7.5yo will do
without a booster for the drive from the airport to their house (he's 51"
and sixty pounds, so in some states he's exempt already, not that I would use
that as a guideline given the choice).
Since I have the memberships, the seat doesn't cost me any $$. We're going
with Hertz, which I have found to be quite reputable/reliable. My toddler will
be a few weeks shy of 3yo when we take the trip, and I'm not shlepping a toddler seat on
the plane when there is one (two, really
) waiting for us and when a 3yocan use the lap belt on the plane (or, if I start thinking it wise, one of those
auxiliary shoulder things with that lap belt).
Cleanliness-wise, I'd rather clean the rental seat and then leave it behind
and give a good shower when we get home, then have to clean out travel
cooties from one of our good seats.
In the unlikely event that Hertz
1. doesn't have a toddler seat
2. can't get one from a neighboring car rental in the airport after I throw
a fit
3. doesn't even have a booster seat with belt-positioning that is sub-optimal
but would work in a pinch for a 3yo
...then I will buckle him in the lap belt in the center back for a short drive
to TRU, and expect a significant car rental discount.
We recently flew from BOS to ORD and drove to Champaign-Urbana, and
rented seats with no problem (both toddler and booster, from Hertz). It may
not be for everyone, but I don't think there's a wholesale problem with the
process.
--LG