Lap child
Was on Delta Paris > JFK and we hit turbulence. Two seats up a baby went flying
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A few years ago I was still flying with a lap child transatlantic, and I preferred flying AF or KLM over Delta for this reason: European airlines give you seat belts for the lap child, while Delta doesn't
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Originally Posted by yno
(Post 31509370)
A few years ago I was still flying with a lap child transatlantic, and I preferred flying AF or KLM over Delta for this reason: European airlines give you seat belts for the lap child, while Delta doesn't
Take your pick. Neither are safe for the child. |
Lap infants should not be permitted and most of all, lap tethers for infants should never be permitted (and are prohibited on US carriers).
It is a harsh reality, but lap infants are permitted because it is an economic necessity for many families. |
Originally Posted by Often1
(Post 31584429)
Lap infants should not be permitted and most of all, lap tethers for infants should never be permitted (and are prohibited on US carriers).
It is a harsh reality, but lap infants are permitted because it is an economic necessity for many families. the risk should be assumed by the guardians of the child IMO of course my preference is for babies to have their own seat and be safe as well as everyone else but, apparently i’m an idealist |
Originally Posted by Often1
(Post 31584429)
Lap infants should not be permitted and most of all, lap tethers for infants should never be permitted (and are prohibited on US carriers).
It is a harsh reality, but lap infants are permitted because it is an economic necessity for many families. Of the millions of miles I've flown with lap children on board, I've seen more U2 children hurt on the way to/from/during diaper changes/bathroom use and during boarding/disembarking than while the children's caregivers are seated on the plane along with the U2 children. Should we ban bathroom use by U2 children as an idealist and mandate that diaper changes and U2 bladder/bowel relief be done at the passenger seats since that may reduce injuries? I would be opposed to such a ban too. |
Originally Posted by GUWonder
(Post 31585352)
The reality is that lap infants are permitted because it's sensible on a basis going beyond mere economics for families. Given all the risks that there are on the ground for U2 children, there are way bigger risks in the world for the average U2 child on the ground than there is in the air for the average U2 child. It's a good thing that the US airlines and their backers haven't yet been able to pull off a general ban on lap-children on planes.
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Originally Posted by knownothing
(Post 31587507)
So we should say it is economically sensible not to wear a bike helmet? Ask any senior FA how many kids she has seen injured from "flying" I know some hospitals who charge the parent with child abuse if the kid is injured which is what should happen
Hospitals can't charge parents with anything in the US or in the EU. Just like people do on the internet, hospital personnel and others can make allegations to try to whip up a frenzy; but it neither makes for legal charges nor does it make for a legal conclusion of "child abuse"regardless of the wishful thinking and various others claims tossed about by people. More U2 children get hurt on the way to/from/during diaper changes/bathroom use and during boarding/disembarking for flights than while the children's caregivers are seated on the plane along with the U2 children. In the interest of "think of the children" and the "war on 'child abuse'" when it comes to U2 passengers, why not suggest that such children are banned from bathroom use and that diaper changes only be conducted on the floor in the aisles or on the passenger seats? That would result in a bigger decline in injury rates for U2 children than any ban on lap children. I know some senior FAs who have never seen a lap child get hurt on their flights while in their caretakers' lap. It doesn't mean it doesn't happen. It also doesn't mean that being a lap child seated on an adult's lap is the riskiest thing that happens to such children during flights or that there are no other risks on flights for such children. But the fact of the matter is that total risk elimination is not practical and that there are bigger fish in the sea to fry if you really care about the welfare of children. If people have a choice of using $80-$1000 for a ticketed seat for their own U2 child or of using that money to more frequently replace their children's car seats, paying to have the CRS installation and use facilitated/inspected, and having their own cars maintained better or replaced with newer, safer models, I would say there's more "child abuse" from use of older car seats and use of older/more poorly maintained vehicles than from not handing over more money to the airline for U2 children than is already involved. The costs of bike helmets and a legal mandate to use bike helmets aren't such that they cause people to forego other health/safety-maximizing means in the way that trying to persecute and prosecute people for not buying a ticketed seat for U2 children would do. For those advocates of banning lap-children on planes in the name of a war on "child abuse" or whatever, do you also propose banning children from using mass transit system buses and trains in the US or EU? Those mass transit system buses in the US and the EU most commonly don't even have seat belts and often even encourage standing up, and yet the risks on the ground are way higher than the risks in the air. |
Originally Posted by GUWonder
(Post 31588966)
Hospitals can't charge parents with anything in the US or in the EU. Just like people do on the internet, hospital personnel and others can make allegations to try to whip up a frenzy; but it neither makes for legal charges nor does it make for a legal conclusion of "child abuse"regardless of the wishful thinking and various others claims tossed about by people. More U2 children get hurt on the way to/from/during diaper changes/bathroom use and during boarding/disembarking for flights than while the children's caregivers are seated on the plane along with the U2 children. In the interest of "think of the children" and the "war on 'child abuse'" when it comes to U2 passengers, why not suggest that such children are banned from bathroom use and that diaper changes only be conducted on the floor in the aisles or on the passenger seats? That would result in a bigger decline in injury rates for U2 children than any ban on lap children. I know some senior FAs who have never seen a lap child get hurt on their flights while in their caretakers' lap. It doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Ir. |
Originally Posted by knownothing
(Post 31589654)
GU: wrong Hospitals can initiate an investigation of child abuse which stays on the parent's record even if it is found negative. But with an injured child, it is becoming more common for the investigator to say "yes". Your reply of kids getting hurt going to the bathroom is off. The MOST common injury on airplanes is hot coffee on lap children with burns requiring grafting. The second most is flying kids It is impossible to hold a kid (laws of physic) if the plane drops because of an air pocket. I doubt your comment of Senior FA who have not seen a lap child injured. It is why the "association of flight attendants have pushed for no lap kids (overwhelmingly)
Surely you remember discussions posted under the BeatCal handle in this thread: https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/trav...l#post29409512 Your choice of words -- about physics, air pockets and charges -- in this discussion are such that I recognized it from the start. Best to at least merge this thread into that one. ;) |
Will have to read that one.
Here are ones that I know of after seeing a child fly and be caught by person in seat behind when the Air France hit an air pocket last month on Paris to New York. You are correct that others agree with you. The FAA recommends car seats but has falsely agreed that driving may be more dangerous - but several articles have stated very few kids are hurt in car when in proper car seat in middle of back seat. So GU. end of discussion. You are entitled to your beliefs even thought they are different from most experts. Have a great day 1) https://www.wsj.com/articles/new-stu...nts-1408574702 2) Time mag on laws of physics: Kids on Adults' Laps: Most Unsafe Passengers on a Plane | TIME.com 3) Aviation Safety Board: laws of physics and other: https://carseatblog.com/16971/lap-ba...omment-page-1/ 4) https://www.quora.com/When-a-plane-h...with-each-bump 5) Remember Force = weight x speed |
Originally Posted by Often1
(Post 31584429)
Lap infants should not be permitted and most of all, lap tethers for infants should never be permitted (and are prohibited on US carriers).
It is a harsh reality, but lap infants are permitted because it is an economic necessity for many families. But I agree with the basic premise: if at all financially possible, get a seat for the child, and bring a basic car seat along. We think that we can hold on to them during turbulence, but the reality is that we can't always. |
Originally Posted by knownothing
(Post 31587507)
So we should say it is economically sensible not to wear a bike helmet? Ask any senior FA how many kids she has seen injured from "flying" I know some hospitals who charge the parent with child abuse if the kid is injured which is what should happen
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Originally Posted by zoned_post_meridiem
(Post 31611222)
I don't know where I read this, but there's also a related safety reason. Driving, even with proper car seats, is still more dangerous by magnitudes than flying with an un-belted lap infant. If someone were to choose a long drive over a flight because they'd have to pay for a separate child seat, the child would be at increased risk, despite the fact that flying as a lap infant is *quite* dangerous.
Although studies vary in their methodology and findings, often-cited research(www.ntsb.gov) conducted by the National Transportation Safety Board shows that although 96 percent of parents and caregivers think they have installed their child's car sear correctly, about 80 percent of all car safety seats are actually used or installed incorrectly, which greatly reduces their effectiveness. The good news is that if an accident occurs, a correctly installed and used safety seat can reduce the risk of death in infants and toddlers by as much as 71 percent. But despite "all" fire departments offering to check your car seat, most don't. Rarely see and infant in the middle of the back seat where they are protected against all most all accidents. |
Originally Posted by GUWonder
(Post 31592792)
Hospitals can't charge anything but money. For legal charges about child abuse, hospitals can do no more than random people off the street can do -- to try to whip up a frenzy and prompt an investigation by authorities with applicable statutory authority to make legal charges.
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