THAI: News
#286
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: BKK
Programs: TG ROP Platinum, M&M Senator, IHG Platinum, Accor Platinum
Posts: 8,274
So the PIC of the flight has made a personal facebook post explaining the situation
https://www.facebook.com/chongsiri/p...99101286847466
Note that it is in Thai though. You can google translate it if you want, but I'm a native, so here's my summary for you guys.
He claims that KK has complimentary upgraded pax from J to F which is different from PIC manual. So he tried to fix this pre boarding. KK insisted that pax should take priority and refuse to demote pax. PIC refuse to take off. KK refuse to change. Then 2 hours passed and things happened the way it did.
https://www.facebook.com/chongsiri/p...99101286847466
Note that it is in Thai though. You can google translate it if you want, but I'm a native, so here's my summary for you guys.
He claims that KK has complimentary upgraded pax from J to F which is different from PIC manual. So he tried to fix this pre boarding. KK insisted that pax should take priority and refuse to demote pax. PIC refuse to take off. KK refuse to change. Then 2 hours passed and things happened the way it did.
that does not change the fact that the pilot has no right to take over 200 passengers hostage, take the risk that the flight is cancelled and the plane remains in Zurich and blackmail ground control that seat arrangements are changed. What would have happened if nobody of the passengers in F agreed to change voluntarily. Would the pilots have insisted that ground staff use FORCE against the passengers and take them out of their seats (remember the UA case, where an innocent passenger was injured by security when they used force to free his seat for a off duty pilot??)?
that the pilot goes now public on FB against the apology of TG's president makes things even worse! what the hell does this guy think!
now it is obvious, that he needs to be fired!
#287
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Tokyo
Programs: JAL Metal Card (OWE), SAS Eurobonus Gold (*G), Marriott Titanium (LTP), Tokyu Hotels Platinum
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So the PIC of the flight has made a personal facebook post explaining the situation
https://www.facebook.com/chongsiri/posts/1899101286847466
http://news1live.com/detail.aspx?NewsID=9610000104848
Note that it is in Thai though. You can google translate it if you want, but I'm a native, so here's my summary for you guys.
He claims that KK has complimentary upgraded pax from J to F which is different from PIC manual. So he tried to fix this pre boarding. KK insisted that pax should take priority and refuse to demote pax. PIC refuse to take off. KK refuse to change. Then 2 hours passed and things happened the way it did.
https://www.facebook.com/chongsiri/posts/1899101286847466
http://news1live.com/detail.aspx?NewsID=9610000104848
Note that it is in Thai though. You can google translate it if you want, but I'm a native, so here's my summary for you guys.
He claims that KK has complimentary upgraded pax from J to F which is different from PIC manual. So he tried to fix this pre boarding. KK insisted that pax should take priority and refuse to demote pax. PIC refuse to take off. KK refuse to change. Then 2 hours passed and things happened the way it did.
#288
Join Date: Sep 2015
Programs: MP
Posts: 224
that's what most of us already understood.
that does not change the fact that the pilot has no right to take over 200 passengers hostage, take the risk that the flight is cancelled and the plane remains in Zurich and blackmail ground control that seat arrangements are changed. What would have happened if nobody of the passengers in F agreed to change voluntarily. Would the pilots have insisted that ground staff use FORCE against the passengers and take them out of their seats (remember the UA case, where an innocent passenger was injured by security when they used force to free his seat for a off duty pilot??)?
that the pilot goes now public on FB against the apology of TG's president makes things even worse! what the hell does this guy think!
now it is obvious, that he needs to be fired!
that does not change the fact that the pilot has no right to take over 200 passengers hostage, take the risk that the flight is cancelled and the plane remains in Zurich and blackmail ground control that seat arrangements are changed. What would have happened if nobody of the passengers in F agreed to change voluntarily. Would the pilots have insisted that ground staff use FORCE against the passengers and take them out of their seats (remember the UA case, where an innocent passenger was injured by security when they used force to free his seat for a off duty pilot??)?
that the pilot goes now public on FB against the apology of TG's president makes things even worse! what the hell does this guy think!
now it is obvious, that he needs to be fired!
#289
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: WLG/BKK
Programs: TG*G, NZ*GE, QF G, Accor Gold
Posts: 10,116
Thanks pon18n - my Thai is too weak and Mrs TK usually helps if I am curious.
But there was no complimentary upgrade of pax. The 747 was operating only 2 classes - business and economy. The seats in the First class section are usually allocated to High Value Customers (Plat/Gold) or to so-called Thai VIPs. This happens all the time.
My resolution would be that deadheading crew should have travelled in allocated seats and an operational decision made on whether they were sufficiently rested for further duty on arrival in Bangkok (if this aspect is even an issue).
I note specifically that it was the 2 senior pilots who got allocated the First Class seats, 2 other pilots went to the regular Business class seats. That suggests to me (a former professional pilot) that crew rest was not the key issue and so the Pilot in Command was wrong.
And to add. There was also a risk of the flying crew exceeding crew duty limits, which would then result in them unfit for duty and so a much longer delay for all concerned. I would estimate that with a 2 hour delay, they were already close to maximum duty hours.
But there was no complimentary upgrade of pax. The 747 was operating only 2 classes - business and economy. The seats in the First class section are usually allocated to High Value Customers (Plat/Gold) or to so-called Thai VIPs. This happens all the time.
My resolution would be that deadheading crew should have travelled in allocated seats and an operational decision made on whether they were sufficiently rested for further duty on arrival in Bangkok (if this aspect is even an issue).
I note specifically that it was the 2 senior pilots who got allocated the First Class seats, 2 other pilots went to the regular Business class seats. That suggests to me (a former professional pilot) that crew rest was not the key issue and so the Pilot in Command was wrong.
And to add. There was also a risk of the flying crew exceeding crew duty limits, which would then result in them unfit for duty and so a much longer delay for all concerned. I would estimate that with a 2 hour delay, they were already close to maximum duty hours.
Last edited by Thai-Kiwi; Oct 19, 2018 at 10:13 pm
#290
Join Date: Sep 2015
Programs: MP
Posts: 224
1020 crew and pilot arrives
1050 discovered that deadhead pilot got assign seat 16AB/16JK which is different from the manual provided to the PIC, so PIC called KK about passive seat assignments and requested to move to F. Because this flight operate on B and Y, so there should be F seats available as they are entitled to. KK responded that F is already full.
PIC was surprised because during briefing there were only 3 pax on B and 7 on F. He wasn't sure whether there were additional B pax that got F seats, or has pax been upgraded, or if there are any other reasons that KK failed to mentioned.
so PIC requested KK not to board pax yet and fix this problem first. If pax are already boarded then there will be seat reassignment later, which makes thing more complicated.
KK insisted on not doing seat reassignment, replying that "deadhead captains are only passive, pax are more important" and that "pax might file complaint"
There were no further communication from ground crew.
50 minutes later after the departure time was the first time KK came to cockpit saying "passengers are ready". PIC said "has the seats been taken care of?" KK replied "can't be done." No further explanations were given.
PIC said "Then we're not boarding"
KK said "Then we'll AOG the flight. Put all pax to hotels"
All the pilots were shocked and dumbfounded by the KK. We didn't understand what happened and why KK said so.
30 minutes later, KK came to cockpit and told PIC "call OS and Captain Nattachai" and walked away.
Captain and pilots in the cockpit tried to invite KK to talk, but KK denied and walk away.
30 minutes later, KK told PIC to "explain the reasons to pax at the gate yourself" and walked away.
10 minutes later, KK said "Only DK can tell me to move pax seats"
10 minutes later, a female ground staff came to notify that KK is talking to DK
15 minutes later, ground staff notified that everything is taken car of. Boarding began and completed in 20 minutes. Flight proceed
Flight landed BKK at 0006
Last edited by pon18n; Oct 19, 2018 at 10:24 pm
#292
Join Date: Sep 2015
Programs: MP
Posts: 224
Personally, if you ask me whether it's PIC or KK's fault, then my reply is "I don't care. Sort this .... out yourself. Leave us passengers out of this."
As a Thai, I must say that this is rather unprofessional, yet way too familiar and common in our culture.
As a Thai, I must say that this is rather unprofessional, yet way too familiar and common in our culture.
#294
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Join Date: Jul 2011
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If you want details, here my best attempt at translating while trying to capture the tone. I'm a native speaker, so my Thai is more than fluent, but you can take this as you wish:
1020 crew and pilot arrives
1050 discovered that deadhead pilot got assign seat 16AB/16JK which is different from the manual provided to the PIC, so PIC called KK about passive seat assignments and requested to move to F. Because this flight operate on B and Y, so there should be F seats available as they are entitled to. KK responded that F is already full.
PIC was surprised because during briefing there were only 3 pax on B and 7 on F. He wasn't sure whether there were additional B pax that got F seats, or has pax been upgraded, or if there are any other reasons that KK failed to mentioned.
so PIC requested KK not to board pax yet and fix this problem first. If pax are already boarded then there will be seat reassignment later, which makes thing more complicated.
KK insisted on not doing seat reassignment, replying that "deadhead captains are only passive, pax are more important" and that "pax might file complaint"
There were no further communication from ground crew.
50 minutes later after the departure time was the first time KK came to cockpit saying "passengers are ready". PIC said "has the seats been taken care of?" KK replied "can't be done." No further explanations were given.
PIC said "Then we're not boarding"
KK said "Then we'll AOG the flight. Put all pax to hotels"
All the pilots were shocked and dumbfounded by the KK. We didn't understand what happened and why KK said so.
30 minutes later, KK came to cockpit and told PIC "call OS and Captain Nattachai" and walked away.
Captain and pilots in the cockpit tried to invite KK to talk, but KK denied and walk away.
30 minutes later, KK told PIC to "explain the reasons to pax at the gate yourself" and walked away.
10 minutes later, KK said "Only DK can tell me to move pax seats"
10 minutes later, a female ground staff came to notify that KK is talking to DK
15 minutes later, ground staff notified that everything is taken car of. Boarding began and completed in 20 minutes. Flight proceed
Flight landed BKK at 0006
1020 crew and pilot arrives
1050 discovered that deadhead pilot got assign seat 16AB/16JK which is different from the manual provided to the PIC, so PIC called KK about passive seat assignments and requested to move to F. Because this flight operate on B and Y, so there should be F seats available as they are entitled to. KK responded that F is already full.
PIC was surprised because during briefing there were only 3 pax on B and 7 on F. He wasn't sure whether there were additional B pax that got F seats, or has pax been upgraded, or if there are any other reasons that KK failed to mentioned.
so PIC requested KK not to board pax yet and fix this problem first. If pax are already boarded then there will be seat reassignment later, which makes thing more complicated.
KK insisted on not doing seat reassignment, replying that "deadhead captains are only passive, pax are more important" and that "pax might file complaint"
There were no further communication from ground crew.
50 minutes later after the departure time was the first time KK came to cockpit saying "passengers are ready". PIC said "has the seats been taken care of?" KK replied "can't be done." No further explanations were given.
PIC said "Then we're not boarding"
KK said "Then we'll AOG the flight. Put all pax to hotels"
All the pilots were shocked and dumbfounded by the KK. We didn't understand what happened and why KK said so.
30 minutes later, KK came to cockpit and told PIC "call OS and Captain Nattachai" and walked away.
Captain and pilots in the cockpit tried to invite KK to talk, but KK denied and walk away.
30 minutes later, KK told PIC to "explain the reasons to pax at the gate yourself" and walked away.
10 minutes later, KK said "Only DK can tell me to move pax seats"
10 minutes later, a female ground staff came to notify that KK is talking to DK
15 minutes later, ground staff notified that everything is taken car of. Boarding began and completed in 20 minutes. Flight proceed
Flight landed BKK at 0006
Apparently the mismatch of seats was between row 16 and 24 on the upper deck. If the PIC felt that was reason to insist on moving pax around and ultimately delaying the flight he is being ridiculous IMHO.
#295
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Portland OR & Bangkok
Programs: United GS, Marriott Ambassador
Posts: 662
that's what most of us already understood.
that does not change the fact that the pilot has no right to take over 200 passengers hostage, take the risk that the flight is cancelled and the plane remains in Zurich and blackmail ground control that seat arrangements are changed. What would have happened if nobody of the passengers in F agreed to change voluntarily. Would the pilots have insisted that ground staff use FORCE against the passengers and take them out of their seats (remember the UA case, where an innocent passenger was injured by security when they used force to free his seat for a off duty pilot??)?
that the pilot goes now public on FB against the apology of TG's president makes things even worse! what the hell does this guy think!
now it is obvious, that he needs to be fired!
that does not change the fact that the pilot has no right to take over 200 passengers hostage, take the risk that the flight is cancelled and the plane remains in Zurich and blackmail ground control that seat arrangements are changed. What would have happened if nobody of the passengers in F agreed to change voluntarily. Would the pilots have insisted that ground staff use FORCE against the passengers and take them out of their seats (remember the UA case, where an innocent passenger was injured by security when they used force to free his seat for a off duty pilot??)?
that the pilot goes now public on FB against the apology of TG's president makes things even worse! what the hell does this guy think!
now it is obvious, that he needs to be fired!
Although KK could've done better with his communications, I side with him insisting on "PAX comes first" (or it might have been his ego, who knows?)
And the fact remains that Business seats WAS AVAILABLE - it doesn't matter that pre-flight briefing 4 F seats were available - tough! Those two pax were rev pax.
PIC was right to try to sort it out before boarding, but to drag is out in public (well, it became public for obvious reasons) is just so unprofessional, and so THAI!
Those two should've tough it out quietly, return home as a hero and then take revenge on the KK internally
#296
Join Date: Sep 2015
Programs: MP
Posts: 224
Yup, it is very THAI.
#298
Join Date: May 2001
Location: RNO, NV, USA.
Programs: UA 2MM
Posts: 5,038
BinSabai - You raise a very good point. If this stand-off has lasted much longer, the crew would have timed out, the flight would be cancelled, the plane would block a gate at ZRH and the pax would go to a hotel. Both ground manager and the PIC were playing with fire.
#299
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: BKK
Programs: TG ROP Platinum, M&M Senator, IHG Platinum, Accor Platinum
Posts: 8,274
for the pilot to go public and blame the station manager for the whole mess is completely ridiculous!
I probably will ask Platinum help desk how can I avoid in future that I have to fly with Captain Chakri Dararat Chongsiri as I fear for my own safety being exposed to a Captain with such a miserable and ruthless personality
or is this Chakri Dararat Chongsiri so well connected that he thinks he is untouchable?
I probably will ask Platinum help desk how can I avoid in future that I have to fly with Captain Chakri Dararat Chongsiri as I fear for my own safety being exposed to a Captain with such a miserable and ruthless personality
or is this Chakri Dararat Chongsiri so well connected that he thinks he is untouchable?
#300
Join Date: May 2001
Location: RNO, NV, USA.
Programs: UA 2MM
Posts: 5,038
There is now a further article in the Bangkok Post: "THAI pilots told to keep mum about Zurich delay".
www.bangkokpost.com/news/general/1561566/thai-to-pilots-dont-talk-about-zurich?utm_source=bangkokpost.com&utm_medium=artic le_news&utm_campaign=most_recent_box
The article states "... for inactive pilots, there is no rule that first-class seats should be reserved for them or not, the source continued.". "But the pilots and the station manager should not fight and hold the passengers hostage".
www.bangkokpost.com/news/general/1561566/thai-to-pilots-dont-talk-about-zurich?utm_source=bangkokpost.com&utm_medium=artic le_news&utm_campaign=most_recent_box
The article states "... for inactive pilots, there is no rule that first-class seats should be reserved for them or not, the source continued.". "But the pilots and the station manager should not fight and hold the passengers hostage".