TAP - Security Breach Cockpit Visit
Jul 22, 2017, 11:13 pm
#31
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Western Europe
Programs: Yeah, well, don’t really care anymore
Posts: 845
'Sterile cockpit' basically means no chit-chat below 10K. You could have a circus of clowns occupying the jump seats and it would be totally legal, provided they stayed quiet.
Think you'll find TAP are well pleased if they never see you onboard on of their aircraft again.
Think you'll find TAP are well pleased if they never see you onboard on of their aircraft again.
Jul 23, 2017, 12:49 am
#32
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Sydney, NSW
Posts: 842
But you made it sound like you spoke with such authority on the issue.
That is really just weaseling out of your claim your certainty implied.
You are clearly a very interesting individual.
That is really just weaseling out of your claim your certainty implied.
You are clearly a very interesting individual.
Last edited by THR; Jul 23, 2017 at 12:49 am Reason: Typo
Jul 23, 2017, 1:37 am
#33
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: London
Programs: Hilton, IHG - BA, GA, LH, QR, SV, TK
Posts: 17,008
I believe there is a lot of confusion over flight deck access rules, including rules relating to domestic operators designated by the countries aviation authority, rules in relation to foreign operators when operating in another countries airspace and also individual airlines.
So the question is; are flight deck visits allowed on Portuguese registered transport aircraft? Are flight deck visits allowed on aircraft bound for Canadian airspace? Does TAP allow flight deck visitors at the Commanders discretion?
It is important to realise that in many countries and airlines flight deck visits are still allowed.
So the question is; are flight deck visits allowed on Portuguese registered transport aircraft? Are flight deck visits allowed on aircraft bound for Canadian airspace? Does TAP allow flight deck visitors at the Commanders discretion?
It is important to realise that in many countries and airlines flight deck visits are still allowed.
Instead he/she chose to raise it in a different, less attractive, way - identifying the crew member involved in a public forum, and then canvassing our support for the public-spirited action taken.
The subsequent hole-digging adds little to the dignity of the exercise.
Jul 23, 2017, 5:02 am
#34
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: May 2012
Location: MCO
Programs: AA, B6, DL, EK, EY, QR, SQ, UA, Amex Plat, Marriott Tit, HHonors Gold
Posts: 12,809
The FAA regulations are at issue since if this is something that indeed TAP allows - they also operate flights to the USA and fly over US air space.
Actually what I do think is relevant your opinion isn't.
I'm a passenger who has reported witnessing something that I consider a security breach and if this is something that is allowed on TAP. I won't use them again. SIMPLE.
Actually what I do think is relevant your opinion isn't.
I'm a passenger who has reported witnessing something that I consider a security breach and if this is something that is allowed on TAP. I won't use them again. SIMPLE.
Federal Aviation Administration introduced the Sterile Cockpit Rule. What is the Sterile Cockpit Rule?
It means that during take-off and landing - before the aircraft passes 10,000 feet on ascent and after it has passed 10,000 feet on the approach - pilots must focus entirely on “their essential operational activities” and “avoid non-essential conversations”.
“Sterile flight deck procedures are meant to increase the flight crew members’ attention to their essential operational activities when their focused alert is needed,” reads the code, which applies to all aviation authorities in the EU, including the British Civil Aviation Authority (CAA).
The rule, which all airlines are required to enforce, forbids “any duties during a critical phase of flight except those duties required for the safe operation of the aircraft”, citing as example, calls for galley supplies, confirming passenger connections, or airline promotions over the tannoy.
It also bans flight crew members or pilots from “eating meals, engaging in nonessential conversations… and nonessentials communications between the cabin and cockpit crews, and reading publications not related to the proper conduct of the flight”. It states this rule applies below 10,000 feet, and during taxi, take-off and landing.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/tr...hy-definition/
It means that during take-off and landing - before the aircraft passes 10,000 feet on ascent and after it has passed 10,000 feet on the approach - pilots must focus entirely on “their essential operational activities” and “avoid non-essential conversations”.
“Sterile flight deck procedures are meant to increase the flight crew members’ attention to their essential operational activities when their focused alert is needed,” reads the code, which applies to all aviation authorities in the EU, including the British Civil Aviation Authority (CAA).
The rule, which all airlines are required to enforce, forbids “any duties during a critical phase of flight except those duties required for the safe operation of the aircraft”, citing as example, calls for galley supplies, confirming passenger connections, or airline promotions over the tannoy.
It also bans flight crew members or pilots from “eating meals, engaging in nonessential conversations… and nonessentials communications between the cabin and cockpit crews, and reading publications not related to the proper conduct of the flight”. It states this rule applies below 10,000 feet, and during taxi, take-off and landing.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/tr...hy-definition/
I would definitely suggest you avoid flying TP in the future. I also suggest you avoid BA, AF, LX, the ME3, and anything from India.
Jul 23, 2017, 6:39 am
#35
Original Member
Join Date: May 1998
Location: Orange County, CA, USA
Programs: AA (Life Plat), Marriott (Life Titanium) and every other US program
Posts: 6,411
This isn't illegal and this isn't the reason. In many aircraft (small) the pilot and the passengers are all in the same compartment. I was once invited by a captain on an AA flight to go in the jump seat for the flight, and he didn't even know me before I got on the plane and said "hello." However, the change has been in the security regulations where, at least in some places (all flights to and from and within the U.S.?) it is now a violation of security regulations (not safety regulations) to allow people in the cockpit while the plane is flying (other than very limited specific categories).
Jul 23, 2017, 6:53 am
#36
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Denver • DEN-APA
Programs: AF Platinum, EK Gold, AA EXP, UA 1K, Hyatt Globalist
Posts: 21,600
Jul 23, 2017, 7:19 am
#37
Suspended
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Brunei
Programs: Enrich Sapphire. Kris Flyer Silver.Le Club Accorhotels,Starwood.
Posts: 2,201
It boils down to company regulations. Post 9-11, many companies changed their rules to not allow non airline employee's to enter the cockpit once the cabin doors were closed for visits until landing and arrival at the gate.
Other's specifically do not allow ANYONE in the cockpit who is not a pilot on duty (i.e. instructor/assessment officer) in the cockpit except cabin crew on duty on the flight (i.e. 1 pilot uses the rest room, a cabin crew must be present in the cockpit till the pilot returns. 1 pilot can not be allowed on his or her own in the cockpit).
And then some airlines, as you guys have mentioned, leave it to the pilot's discreation.
Other's specifically do not allow ANYONE in the cockpit who is not a pilot on duty (i.e. instructor/assessment officer) in the cockpit except cabin crew on duty on the flight (i.e. 1 pilot uses the rest room, a cabin crew must be present in the cockpit till the pilot returns. 1 pilot can not be allowed on his or her own in the cockpit).
And then some airlines, as you guys have mentioned, leave it to the pilot's discreation.
Jul 23, 2017, 8:16 am
#38
Moderator: Lufthansa Miles & More, India based airlines, India, External Miles & Points Resources
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: MUC
Programs: LH SEN
Posts: 48,165
EASA allows the flight crew to decide who is allowed upfront. There is no rule that says no pax at the flight deck. What is not allowed is that the visitors interfere with or fly the aircraft themselves.
Jul 23, 2017, 8:20 am
#39
Original Poster
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Toronto (YYZ)
Posts: 6,279
I believe there is a lot of confusion over flight deck access rules, including rules relating to domestic operators designated by the countries aviation authority, rules in relation to foreign operators when operating in another countries airspace and also individual airlines.
So the question is; are flight deck visits allowed on Portuguese registered transport aircraft? Are flight deck visits allowed on aircraft bound for Canadian airspace? Does TAP allow flight deck visitors at the Commanders discretion?
It is important to realise that in many countries and airlines flight deck visits are still allowed.
So the question is; are flight deck visits allowed on Portuguese registered transport aircraft? Are flight deck visits allowed on aircraft bound for Canadian airspace? Does TAP allow flight deck visitors at the Commanders discretion?
It is important to realise that in many countries and airlines flight deck visits are still allowed.
It may very well be TAP's policy to allow this sort of thing but the big question is are they breaking any government aviation rules in doing so?
You are correct, there is a lot of confusion and I look forward to finding out what is allowed and what isn't.
Jul 23, 2017, 8:27 am
#40
Original Poster
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Toronto (YYZ)
Posts: 6,279
Jul 23, 2017, 9:17 am
#41
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: DEN
Programs: AA EXP, AA Million Miles, Hilton Diamond
Posts: 2,586
"Known for sure; established beyond doubt." is literally one of the dictionary definitions of "certain."
OP: unless you are a European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA), Portuguese ANAC, or TAP official, you have no ground to stand on here. I hope the airline's reponse is something along the lines of "Thanks for your interest. We don't share internal policy with customers. Security reasons and all that."
Jul 23, 2017, 9:50 am
#43
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: BNA
Programs: HH Gold. (Former) UA PP, DL PM, PC Plat
Posts: 8,184
Thanks for your insight... but read my post #27 .
The only thing that matters is what the rules are which apply to airlines certified under Portuguese regulations. I do not know what those rules are.
The cockpit voice recorder records on a loop (was a tape loop, now it's a digital 'loop') so conversations are erased relatively quickly. Tape-based CVRs had a 30-minute loop and the newer digital CVRs have a two-hour loop. The intent is to record the sounds and speech in the minutes before an accident. The recordings from your flight have long been erased.
Jul 26, 2017, 6:22 am
#45
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 2,188
You need to look up the jurisdiction of the FAA.
There isn't. I certainly hope no authority wastes time on this. ANAC is swamped enough as it is.
Good riddance. Just so you know, I've been invited to the cockpit on LH before, thus you should also include them on your list. In addition, AF regularly invites members of the French parliament and government to the cockpit, so you should probably stop flying with them as well.