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Originally Posted by ClueByFour
(Post 9063294)
Were you the hold-out on the President vote? You know, the one where it sure seemed like a Talkboard member was not voting, and thus dragging the time window out?
Someone did it. I guess before we start screaming "politics," we'd better at least come out and own to what may or may not have just happened a few weeks ago. You know, I'll elect someone from Mars if they took the kind of stand that Jenbel did. It was guaranteed to catch her flak, and she did it anyway. And explained the reasoning with remarkable clarity, not the "I'll vote my conscience when I claim it's not political" stuff that smacks very loudly of the antics of the current administration that we deal with in the US. Men and women of intellect and principle are far more useful to FT that poltico reactionaries who "follow their heart." Regarding her actual vote, I applaud her reasoning. It sucks, because I'd have probably voted for the forum had it's creation not been politicized this closely after the election. By doing what she's done, she's hopefully set the table so that when the Men's forum is pitched next week or that the subject of moderation is breached that some modicum of thought is actually given to the outcome and whether wasting time on political moves has any chance of success. I eagerly await the motions on a Men's forum and changing moderation so we can hear the cries of "politics." God save the Queen, I say. This motion, vote and outcome was not about the TB Presidential election, a men's travel forum, moderation or politics. Jenbel has said so. I have said so. This outcome has to do with Jenbel's disquiet with the concept of 'vote for me and I'll immediately try to overturn whatever you didn't like from the last TB session' mentality. That's a perfectly reasonable perception when held up to the standard of a system that still features a House of Lords and, as you point out, an hereditary monarch even if imho the realpolitik of that system belies that perception. Sometimes a vote on a VX forum is just a vote on a VX forum. Your conspiracy theory may vary! It would have been very easy to anticipate what was going to happen - all it needed was for me to be asked what I thought before the motion was made. Instead, apparently an incorrect assumption was made. Trying to pass that off as 'oh we couldn't possibly have known' is really disingenous - you would have known if you had asked. But you didn't ask :( So I apologize to the many Flyertalkers who want and (imho) deserve this forum for getting your hopes up only to see them dashed yet again. Please keep posting about VX and eleVAte in the ONSAFFP forum rather than taking your experiences, ideas and pressure on VX to other sites. Hopefully a VX forum will finally be established once eleVAte matures a little or at "un certain temps," whichever comes first. ^ |
Originally Posted by kokonutz
(Post 9065439)
Sometimes a vote on a VX forum is just a vote on a VX forum. Your conspiracy theory may vary!
Where seldom is heard an encouraging word and black helicopters roam. :p |
Originally Posted by kokonutz
(Post 9065439)
Dude. Cluebee. Back awaaaaaaay from the Black Helicopters.
This motion, vote and outcome was not about the TB Presidential election, a men's travel forum, moderation or politics. Jenbel has said so. I have said so. What I'm doing is illustrating that the political dancing probably started from about the second day of the current Talkboard's term. What's good for the pot is certainly good for the kettle, right? |
Originally Posted by J-M
(Post 9057990)
Oh, I completely understand it's purpose... it's a motion-killer, normally used by people who don't have the guts to come out and vote against something. But do remember that TB members who purposefully do not vote at all for 3 consecutive motions may be removed if their fellow members choose to vote that way - and a motion to that end is made. However in this matter one 'didn't vote' or one 'abstain' both killed the motion for sure, I agree with that. |
Originally Posted by Punki
(Post 9064098)
Sorry, Clue, but I honestly do not believe that there was anything political about koko's motion. He saw an opportunity to better serve the needs of the general membership and made a motion to do so because there was every reason to believe that the motion would pass.
For reasons that could not be anticipated, a vote was changed, and the motion failed. That does not change the good and honest intent of the motion, which was clearly in response to the need of the community we serve. "For reasons that could not be anticipated." Want to know why some degree of intellectual curiosity pays off in politics? Asking Jenbel might have been a swell idea, eh? |
Originally Posted by ClueByFour
(Post 9066003)
He did so less than 2 months after the question had been "Asked and answered." It's politics. What's really ironic is that the outcome was partially impacted because someone on the Talkboard apparently had a "good and honest" intent about respecting the prior Talkboard that differed.
"For reasons that could not be anticipated." Want to know why some degree of intellectual curiosity pays off in politics? Asking Jenbel might have been a swell idea, eh? What political game was I playing? Do you agree that elections can/do/should change policies? If not then shouldn't we all just abandon democracy? And of course there is plenty of precedent for the TB changing its collective mind on matters after an election including, among many, the establishment of the Religious travel forum. You are right about one thing though: I didn't think for a moment that Jenbel would change her vote until she got prickly after the motion was made and seconded. I figured this would be a done deal within days. So I'll take my lumps for that one. But really, to borrow a phrase, to those FTers who simply want a dedicated place to talk about VX, it's all just so much sound and fury...and I do worry about the credibility that the process and the TB may have lost in their eyes as a result of this outcome. |
Originally Posted by J-M
(Post 9062199)
Let me get this straight... even the Moderator of the forum in which VX is currently discussed feels that it needs its own forum? Hopefully this wrong decision by the TB will be remembered during the next election process.
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Originally Posted by kokonutz
(Post 9066974)
Ok, I'll play along, if only to identify which black helicopter you are tracking on your radar. :p
What political game was I playing? Do you agree that elections can/do/should change policies? If not then shouldn't we all just abandon democracy? And of course there is plenty of precedent for the TB changing its collective mind on matters after an election including, among many, the establishment of the Religious travel forum. You are right about one thing though: I didn't think for a moment that Jenbel would change her vote until she got prickly after the motion was made and seconded. I figured this would be a done deal within days. So I'll take my lumps for that one. But really, to borrow a phrase, to those FTers who simply want a dedicated place to talk about VX, it's all just so much sound and fury...and I do worry about the credibility that the process and the TB may have lost in their eyes as a result of this outcome. |
Originally Posted by kokonutz
(Post 9066974)
You are right about one thing though: I didn't think for a moment that Jenbel would change her vote until she got prickly after the motion was made and seconded. I figured this would be a done deal within days. So I'll take my lumps for that one.
Now let's hope that VX gets off its rear and tells us how we're going to earn free flights! |
Originally Posted by AZ Travels the World
(Post 9061570)
What are you expecting, exactly?
It's possible that some of us, who are extremely interested in, and supportive of, a VX forum, take the approach of voicing our opinions as thoughtfully as we can, then wait for the outcome and move on. It didn't even occur to me that sharing my negative reaction would somehow be constructive. Isn't it obvious how the supporters of the forum would feel about the outcome, given the input they provided? But we'll have less 'forum clutter.' :(
Originally Posted by AZ Travels the World
(Post 9061570)
But if it's reaction you want, I'll say that this whole things makes me sad. We'll just watch -- again -- as someone goes away and establishes yet another board away from FT dedicated to a specific airline, resulting in the highest value information exchange occurring somewhere else.
Jenbel: Well of course you can do that too. It's your choice. But IMHO it's a bit teddy out of pramish [throwing a temper tantrum] since a) there is a forum for discussion of VX, it's just many of you don't seem to like it and b) if you do it, it decreases the chances of ever having a VX forum on FT. |
Jenbel, thank you for your explanation. Well laid-out re: your thought process & much appreciated, at least by this member.
BTW - not to downplay the role or reputation of TB, but I would hazard a guess the majority of the general membership of FT is not aware of nor cares about TB, so TB's reputation will be fine, regardless of this decision ;) It's the 'regulars' who post on TB who seem to get the most upset, especially if decisions (not this one specifically) don't go their way. A further guess is that Randy is not going to come in and 'right the wrong' :rolleyes: because he has a TB that handles such things. And some of the people who voted against (and/or abstained) on the creation of the forum have also said that they're not against the forum forever, just not at this time. Speaking only for myself, I thought Punki was totally out of line w/ her don't vote for those from the UK comment. I would have expected better from her. OVMV. Cheers. |
Originally Posted by SkiAdcock
(Post 9067715)
Speaking only for myself, I thought Punki was totally out of line w/ her don't vote for those from the UK comment.
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Originally Posted by nroscoe
(Post 9067426)
I suggest you (AZ Travels the world) be careful with your comments, when I raised that same point (during the first VX vote) I was shot back with this snarky comment from one of our abstainers:
I can't recall an airline launch in my travel days that has created such intense interest so early on. My fear is that the TB's shortsightedness will result in that interest migrating elsewhere, as has occurred with several other airlines. That would be a shame for FT, as it dilutes the value of this site, as the most knowledgeable sources are exchanging their knowledge somewhere else. I hope it doesn't happen, but given the intensity of the interest so early in the game, I won't be at all surprised. And for what? Reduced 'forum clutter'? A shorter list of forums? I just don't get it. :confused: |
Those are my feelings, exactly, AZ Travels the World. Opportunities to get in at the beginning, and even influence the development of a program, don't come along that often, and, when they do, we need to take advantage of them if we want FlyerTalk to be "THE" internet source for air travel information.
I was half kidding about not voting for Brits, because the division doesn't seem to be that neat, i.e. it is not clear that all Brits insist on waiting for.......whatever, and all Americans want to just move ahead and get things done. If however, getting things done expeditiously is a consideration for the voting public, then that is a very serious factor that they should take into consideration when they vote next time around. Personally, probably because I am an entrepreneur, I believe in moving ahead and getting things done without a lot of red tape, ifs, ands, or buts. If something looks good to me and has no serious downside, I move ahead. I also take my responsibility to the FlyerTalk general membership very seriously and will present and, in all likelihood support, any reasonable idea presented from a member. I am not quite as liberal as Cholula, who has never met a forum that he didn't like, but I have certainly never met a forum that I couldn't ignore. :D |
Originally Posted by Punki
(Post 9069343)
I am not quite as liberal as Cholula, who has never met a forum that he didn't like, but I have certainly never met a forum that I couldn't ignore. :D
Seriously, I'd like to see FT be the one-stop shop for subjects that are important to frequent flyers and road warriors. If it's your favorite airline, hotel, credit card, auto rental, etc. FlyerTalk should offer you a unique forum to discuss it. And by unique, I'm not referring to a catch all forum where dozens of other non-related subjects are being discussed. And I don't think that existing and potential new FT'ers should be made to grovel or come on bended knee to beg for a forum hoping, many times in vain, that a TalkBoard will bestow such a forum. Who knows how many newbies we chase away everyday who come to FlyerTalk looking for a resource that isn't there when they need it? Should we rubber-stamp every single forum request?? Certainly not. We use our common sense to evaluate new forums and carefully listen to what our members are asking for. And forums that are not relevant to our core values of miles and points should get special scrutiny before establishment. It's going to be a long time before I give Air Zimbabwe a ^ ^ but some requests, like Virgin America, are simply no-brainers IMHO. But as is evident in reading just this single thread, we have a diverse group of TB members who rarely follow in lockstep with each other. |
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