Should LH and LX forums be merged?
 

The question has been asked in TB, that since LH and LX have the same FF programme now, should the current forums be merged? There is precedent - KLM/AF and HP/US have both been merged, one as a complete merger, the other eventually in a subforum set-up, where the different airlines, which operate as distinct entities, have their own subforums, with a shared parent forum for discussing the FFP. This does give us a couple of potential models along which to base any merger - or we could let the status quo continue. One thing we are aware of, following those two mergers, is that merging a board is not as simple as just joining them together, and that if the boards have very different cultures, it can be very problematic for the users.

Any thoughts?

Yes, merge them already! :)

We don't need subforums, though. Why? Well, we also don't have (nor did we ever need or miss) a OS or LO subforum. Or one for all those small M&M "integrated partner airlines". We even have a combined LH/OS seating thread. It'll be easy to integrate LX in such threads, especially since LH keeps integrating LX into their systems/network, hence sooner than later LH and LX will resemble each other more than LH and OS.

Also, the LX forum looks pretty empty these days, which means that most users have already migrated to the LH forum, anyway.

I would say (and I hope I don't hurt any Swiss feelings):

Yes, the STC forum should be merged into the M&M forum.

1) Currently, even questions on OS are dealt with in the M&M forum, although OS is less integrated with LH than LX. Why should LX have its own forum then and not OS?

2) Swiss Travel Club does not exist anymore. Anybody who hasn't been following FFP history will not even know what this forum refers to.

3) Threads on LX are interesting for M&M members as the rules on LX are similar to LH, and should be expected to become increasingly aligned. This would stop us from having to monitor two forums.

4) There are quite a lot less posts in the STC forum than in the M&M forum, so integrating the two should not lead to information overload in the M&M forum.

5) The culture and posters in both the M&M and the STC forum are very similar.

Therefore, my suggestion: Make the current STC forum a sub-forum of the M&M forum, but close it for new threads. This would allow the history of the STC to be preserved (and discussion on historical threads to be continued) while all new issues can be discussed in the M&M forum.

On top of that it should be made clear that all threads regarding OS, LO or the smaller M&M members should be located in the M&M forum as well.

SmilingBoy.

The main discussion about this issue seems to be in the LH forum: http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=673683

On January 1st 2003 Qualiflyer (now located in “Discontinued Programs/Partners” section) went out of business. SWISS TravelClub (STC), Privilege (brussels airlines) and Navigator (TAP, now Victoria) were born and Qualifyer member had the option to transfer their miles into one of these FFPs (as LOT joined *A, members residing in Poland had the additional option to transfer their miles into Miles & More). On this BB, STC got their own forum, discussions about Privilege and Navigator (now Victoria) are grouped into European FFP forum.

STC had a short live for only 3 ¼ years, as this FFP discontinued operations almost a year ago. 900K members transferred their miles into MAM and if you look at the grid, a “Discontinued Programs/Partners” section exists. I have no idea, why STC was not transferred into this section. However, Randy Petersen, the former owner of this board announced his planes rather than merely move former forums to the discontinued area, to let them continue as sub-forums in the program that it is being moved to. I don’t know, why these planes didn’t come into effect.

If you compare AF/KL with LH/LX, please bear in mind that Frequence Plus (AF) and Flying Dutchmen (KL) went out of business as Flying Blue was born while SWISS TravelClub discontinued operation, but Miles & More (MAM) stays alive. In other words, situation for MAM member didn’t change while former STC members had the option to transfer their miles into MAM.

Up to now discussions about AF/KL are structured in three forum: Flying Blue, Air France, KLM (IMO last two with misleading titles as discontinued forum still named). Discussions about LH/LX are structured in two forum: Lufthansa Miles & More (including discussions about Adria Airways, Air Dolomiti, Air One, Austrian, Croatia Airlines, LOT Polish Airlines) and SWISS TravelClub (misleading title). IMO the last forum should be only used for SWISS Topics not related to MAM.

Following the AF/KL path, LH/LX would be split up into three forum: Miles & More for mileage related topics and Lufthansa et al and SWISS for airlines related topics. I don’t support this approach: As there are already discussions on the current Lufthansa Miles & More board about mileage and airline related topics, I would not destroy a healthy scheme.

Thus one question remains: Where to discuss about SWISS International Airlines related topics? I would do this within the current Lufthansa Miles & More board which is medium sized and move the current SWISS TravelClub board to Discontinued Programs/Partners” section. If this is not a valuable solution, I would not change anything besides the forum title into SWISS International Airlines (but delete the outdated referrer www.travelclub.swiss.com)

As there was and is only one dedicated forum for these topics, members should do this up to now. However, some members don’t follow TOS.

If you like to draw attention what’s personally important for you (= to acquire premium passenger to transfer at ZRH), than you start threads in the MAM forum.

MAM is also the FFP of Adria Airways, Air Dolomiti, Air One, Austrian, Croatia Airlines and LOT Polish Airlines. Discussions about airline related topics of these airlines running on MAM board smoothly for years. Although M+ board is much bigger in size, there is no forum for TED.

Talking about LH and LX, this was not a merger, it was an acquisition.

As Frequence Plus and Flying Dutchmen discontinued operations and Flying Blue was born, the new FFP of AF/KL was similar designed as Frequence Plus. IMO there was a culture shock for former Flying Dutchmen members as the new FFP of their [i]beloved airline[/I ] is not as generous as the former. For these members this was much more problematic than the different cultures of Frequence Plus and Flying Dutchmen forums.

:confused: You only have options if there are several (or at least two) to choose from. Actually STC members had none or at least they had none if they didn't wanted to lose their miles.

As I still posted in the other thread I vote for a merger without any subforums. All issues related to LH, LX, OS and the other integrated M&M partners can be duscussed in one forum IMHO.

Cheers
totti

I wasn't talking about LH & LX - I was talking about the two mergers of boards on FT.

I'm sorry, I didn't think you were on FT when the KLM/AF boards were merged :confused: As someone who was active on one of the boards at the time, there definitely were issues because the boards themselves had very different cultures - which wasn't realised until the boards were merged, and it wasn't realised what a problem it could be until the boards were merged. Big learning curve for everyone involved in that particular process - and hence the later divorce into subforums for irreconcilable differences between the former members of the two boards ;)

The other option was to spend STC miles.

I definitely have no idea about managements' approach. I assumed, as Flying Dutchment and Frequence Plus discontinued operations, these forums were moved into the discontinued forums section and a new Flying Blue forum was opened. I never thought FT made out of two boards one. Sorry, that I interfered.

No, we had two restructuring attempts because the first was not successful :( but that's a learning point for this discussion :)

Not what I'd call an option: how to spend lets say 500k miles (there were a lot of STC members with even more miles in their accounts) within 6 month or even less?

Anyway this is OT here and that's why I stop. It was all discussed long ago in both, the M&M and STC forum.

Again, a merger would be a real profit for both the LX and M&M forum and for FT in general, IMHO.

Greetings
totti

Of course there are LX specific topics. But on LH, there is also a big distinction between longhaul and shorthaul (seating, service, routes, airport tipps etc.). Do we need a subforum for LH shorthaul? No. So I say, integrate all discussions into one board. Let's ask it the other way round: How many people reading the LX forum would not be interested in M&M issues? I would assume most LX forum poster monitor the M&M forum in any case. If this is true, there is no need to keep the two separate anymore.

SmilingBoy.

I am not a regular user of either (But did fly Swiss from JFK-Zürich last month!) however as a casual observer this does seem on first read like a logical solution.

As a TB member I'd be happy to support this path if others are happy with it.

I'd also be interested to read the thoughts of other time Swiss/LH users like Rudi etc, and certainly would use their thought as strong guidance.

Following up on Jenbel's culture issue, this is a point that's not to be underestimated IMHO. In fact, the discussion style on today's LX forum is quite different than what can be witnessed on LH.

On LX, there are less off-topic discussions and fewer topics that drift off to something completely different. Also, we lack the rapid and sequential posting of short insertions by the likes of flysurfer and weero. And so far, the LX board has never needed a moderator.

That being said, I have no problem with the culture and humor as displayed in the LH forum today. But it *is* different.

Indeed.
The LX forum has no IFE.

I would definitely hope that the LX forum is not just moved to "Discontinued Programs". This would be the worst of all options, and "forcing us" directly into the M&M forum would definitely kill some or most of the STC forum spirit, along with the mentioned clash of cultures. (No moderator vs. established moderating style, sense of humer, range of topics ...).

The old LH forum has been home to LH, OS, LO and some LX-discussions. The LX forum has been mainly LX related.
I think the idea of subforums makes the most sense - however I would favor two subforums without a main forum, which is where I would go a different route from how the AF/KL forums were restructured.
Two subforums and one main forum make it a bit too complicated on where to post things, even if the theoretical division is possible. It also makes it harder to find relevant information. The old cultures can be preserved, but the new situation that M&M is shared as a program should be reflected in the forum structure. The nice thing about subforums is that searches and subscription e-mails automatically include the main forum and all subforums.

To summarize: Please do not merge them completely. Either create two equal subforums without a main forum, or move the STC forum just below the M&M forum as a subform, with the M&M forum being the main one. And rename the STC forum into "Swiss Board". I would avoid one main forum and two subforums, as all LH and non-LX related M&M discussion is at home in the current LH board, and I would not attempt to change that.

Although not a regular poster, I would welcome a merger. Isn't this the easiest solution after all for posters, readers etc.?

I have used both boards in the past regularly and LH and LX forums are the two I checked even if I am on the road and have to use my PDA.

As said by others the style of discussion is quite different in the LX than in the LH forum. It is more convenient and you find the topics you are looking for faster, as there are the most time only one discussion to this topic as three or four in the LH forum – and this even without a moderator. On the other hand you should also be aware of the fact, that LX has still in my eyes a better customer relationship and as far as I know they are monitoring the board.

The LH forum is in the need of a moderator and the job is done very good by Kiwi Flyer, but the of topic discussion becomes more and more disturbing, if you are looking for information or give information. Many post are not appropriate for a forum but for a discussion via a Messenger Program or for Omni. This is a general problem and not related to the LH forum but is more or less not existing in the LX forum.

On the other hand there are a lot of topics which are not covered in the LX Forum. And I personally think it would even make sense to make a own subforum for discussions concerning Austrian, LOT, Regional Members. The problem with LH is that the board is to big because the number of airlines using LH Miles and More is to big. So if you are looking for information about Austrian you have to look in the LH board which makes no sense and it is difficult to get and give information.

So a merger of both forum would be the worst I could expect, creating a sub forum would be the best thing in this situation. And if you open sub forum like suggest for Austrian / LOT / Regional Members I would be “a very happy customer”

I am an infrequent visitor to both boards and I do appreciate the special feel of the STC forum. I would prefer to keep things as they are or, as a backup choice, that the LX forum become a sub-forum of the LH forum.

egoistically I am happy like it is (still) right now.

but in general it is probably more helpfull for LH miles&more posters and lurkers if the fora of all miles&more partners are in one place.

a (typical swiss political ;) ) compromise would be, and would get my vote:

a miles&more head forum (discussing exclusively miles&more-program issues).

plus miles&more subfora for discussions concerning LH, Austrian, swiss, LOT, Regional Members (were all, or at least most, for discussions about these individual airlines, local/regional offers, etc).

So instead of 1 or 2 we'd have to read at least 6 forums related to M&M? Amazing improvement! Poor Kiwi Flyer will spend an hour a day just moving misposted threads to the correct subforum.

In this spirit, I also vote for UA subforums covering each and every regional UX partner. And TED. And I want a subforum about RCCs. And one that tells me the current location of UA's LAX elite check-in. :D

Thank you for the comments :) To keep you updated, I've just motioned that the two forums be merged, but that there be a parent forum for discussion of M&M, LH, OS and other regional partners, and a sub-forum for discussion of matters related to travelling on Swiss. I've posted the gist but not the exact wording, since it can still be amended, but will do so if I get a seconder and it goes to a vote.

My reasoning is that there did seem to be agreement that a merger was a good thing. My feeling was that many LH members would be happy to have a complete integration, but there were a number of regular LX posters who were uncomfortable with that as an option, hence the halfway house. I didn't think there was much of a benefit to be served by creating more forums for the other airline partners where one seems to have served well in the past.

I am very happy with your proposal (and I hope it gets support from other FT board members). :)

I learned that I have to exxagerate a bit, to receive a desired (compromise) minimum :p

While you may not have intended to imply this - your wording suggests that our moderator regularly has to become active because of TFM and me :td: .

Back on topic: the LH forum is the "LH M&L" forum to me and all of my LX experiences - after the STC being devoured go to the LH forum alone.

That's exactly how I understood it. And since reading it, I have been busy plotting gruesome revenge.

Such as rapid-firing post? I am in for it ;) .

Still hope though that it was just a somwhat clumsy wordingn rather than evil intent. Comparing the huge LH forum to the compact LX one is a joke in itself. Naturally, LH will have more threads on the same topic. One glimpse at the UA or AA fora will illustrate this impressively.

I am sorry if this is how it came across - I did not mean to imply anything of the sort. The two observations were not meant to be seen as cause and effect at all.

As for Jenbel's motion, I am very happy with it. ^

Somebody sounds really, really scared. :D :p

Anyway, I guess the motion is something everybody can live with, so... congratulations Kiwi Flyer for moderating yet another (sub-)forum. ^ :D

No offense taken then.

Is any form of action really required? Wouldn't the LX forum simply die of natural causes the next few years?
Of course not if LX becomes LH's LCC where you can only miles/points/air-euros - or whatever the currency of travel will be in 5 years - on certain fares? Then LX would live a life independent of M&L and the current constellation would again be suitable.

Ok, the motion has now been seconded and gone to a vote. The exact wording is:

I guess you shouldn't omit LX in the main forum's headline. ;)

I am with this, but like flysurfer I would second to change the title. LX should be clearly visible as well.

If we have only one single forum, then please change the name of it, and don't let it be LUFTHANSA miles and more. SWISS Miles and More sounds much better ^ ;)

Spot on - LH threads quickly dissolve into off-topic banter, blessedly impenetrable to outsiders, but making the follow-up of topics frustrating. LX threads tend to be more focussed, and it would be a shame to see these hijacked by LH noise.

However, we should remember the forums exist to discuss FFP rather than their constituent airlines. And although my M&M card proudly shows a SWISS logo, the programme it represents is definitely M&M.

Forums for hotel programmes manage their wildly disparate brands under a single roof, so I bow to the inevitability of a merged LX/LH et al forum, but still hold out for a sub-stage to discuss SWISS-related topics.

Motion has now been amended to change the title of the proposed new forum to "Miles & More (Lufthansa, Austrian, Swiss, and other partners)" following feedback from both on here and other TB members :)

Somehow I have missed this whole discussion so far, but I fully support the proposed solution, i.e. M&M forum with LX subforum. ^ ^

Same for me, I like the idea of a sub-forum.

Motion Passed!
 

On 7 April 2007, the TalkBoard unanimously passed the following:

Moved by Jenbel and seconded by Dovster:

that the Lufthansa Miles and More and Swiss travelclub forums be combined into one parent forum for discussion of Miles and More, and Lufthansa, Austrian and regional airline partners, and one sub-forum for discussion of matters related to travel on Swiss. The parent forum should be retitled to 'Miles & More (Lufthansa, Austrian, Swiss, and other partners)'.

... and already executed! That was fast. One thing to change though is the URL of "Swiss International Airlines". It still points to travelclub.swiss.com. I guess it should point to http://www.swiss.com/ .

SmilingBoy.