AirTran Forum a Reality
Dec 19, 2003, 3:24 am
#31
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<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by cigarman:
being a nuscence???</font>
being a nuscence???</font>
What is a nuscence? Can anyone translate this term please?
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by cigarman:
Clearly because some folks have too much free time they find fault with anything.</font>
Clearly because some folks have too much free time they find fault with anything.</font>
THIS Forum in case you did not notice is actually called - "TalkBoard Issues: 2001/2002/2003" - so the discussion here is entirely appreciate to THIS Forum.
Whether your comment was aimed at myself, ScottC or attorney 28 or gleff it remains the same.
Unlike YOU they all contribute a great deal of input to this Bulletin Board. And a great deal of unpaid time.
I repeat - as President of TalkBoard - you remain a joke. That is MY firm personal opinion and others may choose to agree or disagree with it. And I believe I have EVERY right to express it. The track record over the past couple of years speaks volumes IMO.
And one of your once fellow TalkBoard members went further in this very Forum with a post last year along those lines, so I clearly am not alone it seems:
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">
I don't know about the rest of you, but the arrogance of these statements is unbelievable and unacceptable.
Cigarman's bravado is legendary stuff here. And if it were only a case of meaningless chest-thumping, self-aggrandizing behavior, I would accept it as the annoying background noise I believe it to be. My concern is that, based on the example the threads above provide, he is buying his own marketing and believes he is truly crafting the policy and direction of FlyerTalk. There are new members arriving here daily who should not be mislead about this.
The only expressed role of TalkBoard leadership is that of procedural traffic cop. But Cigarman seems to believe he has been endowed with some kind of real power. If the power of the TalkBoard Presidency has changed since I was there, and if Cigarman does, in fact, have the power to shape the major decisions of FlyerTalk, I want to know that, because I have no interest in supporting his regime. But I don't believe for a minute that this is the case.
This behavior is an abuse of a relatively meaningless position. And it's an insult to what is a well-meaning and selfless group effort on the part of the other TalkBoard members. </font>
I don't know about the rest of you, but the arrogance of these statements is unbelievable and unacceptable.
Cigarman's bravado is legendary stuff here. And if it were only a case of meaningless chest-thumping, self-aggrandizing behavior, I would accept it as the annoying background noise I believe it to be. My concern is that, based on the example the threads above provide, he is buying his own marketing and believes he is truly crafting the policy and direction of FlyerTalk. There are new members arriving here daily who should not be mislead about this.
The only expressed role of TalkBoard leadership is that of procedural traffic cop. But Cigarman seems to believe he has been endowed with some kind of real power. If the power of the TalkBoard Presidency has changed since I was there, and if Cigarman does, in fact, have the power to shape the major decisions of FlyerTalk, I want to know that, because I have no interest in supporting his regime. But I don't believe for a minute that this is the case.
This behavior is an abuse of a relatively meaningless position. And it's an insult to what is a well-meaning and selfless group effort on the part of the other TalkBoard members. </font>
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~ Glen ~ sipping bubbly from a UA 747-400 exit row 15 near you SOON!
[This message has been edited by ozstamps (edited Dec 19, 2003).]
Dec 19, 2003, 5:27 am
#32
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<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by cigarman:
Now you unfairly beat us up because of it. We can't win.
</font>
Now you unfairly beat us up because of it. We can't win.
</font>
1. Randy rolls out Air Tran or month or two back. End of story.
2. TalkBoard just votes on their great idea - 'let's have an Air Tran forum'. 7-0.
3. Had this thread never occurred this would 100% be one of the great trumpeted "achievements" of TB sometime down the track.
4. How is raising this Monty Python script "beating up" on TalkBoard?
5. No I guess you "can't win" if you keep voting on things months after they occur.
6. Want to have a vote on where the Freddie's will be held this year?
7. I bet you'll get a 7 - 0 correct result on that one too.
8. I am flying to Bolivia now for Xmas - so please excuse no further posts.
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~ Glen ~ sipping bubbly from a UA 747-400 exit row 15 near you SOON!
Dec 19, 2003, 4:39 pm
#33
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Thank goodness there will be no future posts. I fell sorry for the people of Boliva. Perhaps you can "educate" them as well... since you know all. It is just too frustrating to have to put up with you lying all the time. The airtran forum did not predate our suggestion. A very simple fact.Ask Randy since you call all of us liars when we suggest otherwise. We don't trumpet anything. We got raked over the coals BY YOU for not updating the results of our votes. Now we get raked over the coals BY YOU for reporting our vote. We cannot win.
Dec 19, 2003, 8:45 pm
#34
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<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by cigarman:
Thank goodness there will be no future posts. I fell sorry for the people of Boliva. Perhaps you can "educate" them as well... since you know all. It is just too frustrating to have to put up with you lying all the time. The airtran forum did not predate our suggestion. A very simple fact.Ask Randy since you call all of us liars when we suggest otherwise. We don't trumpet anything. We got raked over the coals BY YOU for not updating the results of our votes. Now we get raked over the coals BY YOU for reporting our vote. We cannot win.</font>
Thank goodness there will be no future posts. I fell sorry for the people of Boliva. Perhaps you can "educate" them as well... since you know all. It is just too frustrating to have to put up with you lying all the time. The airtran forum did not predate our suggestion. A very simple fact.Ask Randy since you call all of us liars when we suggest otherwise. We don't trumpet anything. We got raked over the coals BY YOU for not updating the results of our votes. Now we get raked over the coals BY YOU for reporting our vote. We cannot win.</font>
I do not "lie all the time." And I did NOT call anyone above a liar.
Your comprehension of the English language appears as shaky as your grasp of the spelling side of it.
These are two uncalled for (and erroneous) breaches of the TOS and a personal attack on me - and I request you withdraw them ASAP please. Expecting or requesting an apology for you is Fantasyland stuff, so editing them out will be fine thanks.
Please show some evidence of leadership qualities and class here, and comport yourself as Randy would surely wish ALL FlyerTalkers would do - much less the FT President. Lead by example. The most successful and respected folks in life usually do. Edit out your baseless and un-necessary personal attacks please.
If you care to go and READ the first post, this thread is about a VOTE being taken to have an AirTran Forum created weeks after the Forum was up and running - this thread has nothing to do with any "suggestion" of it being introduced.
If the excuse of the moment is that you folks voted a month after you agreed on this (and quite clearly - TB member stories above vary widely on this assertion) you all should get a rocket for not being more organised. IMO. And it seems I am not the only one to have expressed similar feelings.
A handful of folks to conduct an email or TB website vote should take a day or so at best. Show some leadership - set a deadline - if they do not vote within 48 hours they are recorded as abstaining. This is not rocket science. Happens every day in a million other Committees. Sure some folks are busy - if too busy to participate in ANY volunteer position, whether on FT or PTA or Boy Scouts - they simply have the common sense not to nominate.
As ScottC points out lots of Air Tran fliers have made this suggestion since 1999 - well before it crossed your mind. Neither you, Scott or myself were even FT members when it was first suggested. But of course you will take credit for it all the same.
Your post is continuing evidence - if any were needed - that you have neither the demeanor or manners or style or diplomacy to be holding the position of Talk Board President.
I am making no comment on your role as a normal FlyerTalker in this thread - in that role I have no interest whatever how and what and where you post. You accepted a position of TB President, and I am saying IMO you have failed in that role rather spectacularly.
All FT'ers are invited to vote for TB and are thus entitled to hold a personal opinion on how well or how hopelessly those elected are performing - office-bearers included.
Whomever takes over will have to put that sad track record behind him/her, but the sooner it occurs, the better for FT. IMHO.
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~ Glen ~ sipping bubbly from a UA 747-400 exit row 15 near you SOON!
[This message has been edited by ozstamps (edited Dec 19, 2003).]
Dec 19, 2003, 11:16 pm
#35
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There is no point in arguing with you all knowing OZ...
But some corrections are in order. Our votes are open until we get 2/3rds. If we close votes within 2-3 days every vote would fail. People are very slow in voting.
We are not taking credit for the idea. We never have. Again I point out what you ignore. We only posted the results. Something you screamed we weren't doing fast enough before. And yes OZ you are calling us liars. You keep claiming several things that just are not true. You accuse us of begining votes and taking credit for things after they have already occurred. But, I should know better than argue with you. It is futile. You just will post more out of context quotes and make more stupid claims.
But some corrections are in order. Our votes are open until we get 2/3rds. If we close votes within 2-3 days every vote would fail. People are very slow in voting.
We are not taking credit for the idea. We never have. Again I point out what you ignore. We only posted the results. Something you screamed we weren't doing fast enough before. And yes OZ you are calling us liars. You keep claiming several things that just are not true. You accuse us of begining votes and taking credit for things after they have already occurred. But, I should know better than argue with you. It is futile. You just will post more out of context quotes and make more stupid claims.
Dec 19, 2003, 11:44 pm
#36
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Your last post (sadly) confirms all I have posted cigarman.
Just for the record, let me remind you again of my serious request:
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by ozstamps:
These are two uncalled for (and erroneous) breaches of the TOS and a personal attack on me - and I request you withdraw them ASAP please. Expecting or requesting an apology for you is Fantasyland stuff, so editing them out will be fine thanks.
Please show some evidence of leadership qualities and class here, and comport yourself as Randy would surely wish ALL FlyerTalkers would do - much less the FT President. Lead by example. The most successful and respected folks in life usually do. Edit out your baseless and un-necessary personal attacks please.
</font>
These are two uncalled for (and erroneous) breaches of the TOS and a personal attack on me - and I request you withdraw them ASAP please. Expecting or requesting an apology for you is Fantasyland stuff, so editing them out will be fine thanks.
Please show some evidence of leadership qualities and class here, and comport yourself as Randy would surely wish ALL FlyerTalkers would do - much less the FT President. Lead by example. The most successful and respected folks in life usually do. Edit out your baseless and un-necessary personal attacks please.
</font>
~ Glen ~ sipping bubbly from a UA 747-400 exit row 15 near you SOON!
Dec 22, 2003, 10:35 am
#38
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I don't really understand the object of a few members here. I'll point them out from my point of view and if you then want to call something of me for that, then you might just be poicking on the wrong guy. From my first read, both oz and ScottC owe the TalkBoard a very hunble apology.
Fact #1: My actions to add the AirTran board came only because of the action of the TalkBoard. It was there discussion and eventual vote there stirred me to create the forum. True, some requests were there before, but I just lack the time to make everything hapopen and the TB serves to sometime kick me in the ... to get something done.
Fact #2: Why the 'timing'? Simple, Because of travel, time away from the board, etc. it may take several weeks for a 'final' vote tally to be conducted. A few may vote right away with a few coming later because they were elsewhere or traveling or on vacation. These things do happen in the common lives of all travelers. Anyway, as soon as i saw that the 'majority of members had voted positively on this issue, I went ahead and created the forum, knowing that even with the following votes to come being negative, a 'majority' had already voted to confirm the forum and I just happen to have a few minutes to spare and better to get it done when i had those minutes than perhaps running the risk of weeks or months later.
Hard to believe when I did that there would be any - and I mean any - discussion to the contrary. Hell, the action by the board I assume was coming from members and it was only enhancing the traffic on FT.
Fact #3: In my mind, my actions to finally get it done were the direct result of the actions of the TalkBoard.
Fact #4: I made the decision to not elect a new President. This was the first time that we had a turnover of members and I kind of liked the idea that Cigarman and an election would contribute to sort of an even keel approach to this second election. True, he's bigger than I and can probably whip me in a debate, but he's been very reasonable in any discussions we've had. Most important - he has kept every word he has made to me, and in trying to seek input and continuity, that more than almost anything is quite important to me. So please don't hold the Board or anyone else hostage on these types of things. Judgments have been made and if wrong, I'll accept the responsibility. But sincerely, I'm not seeing anything about AirTran that deserves this thread and will still point out that I personally think oz and ScottC owe the Board an apology. But that's just me thinking...
Fact #1: My actions to add the AirTran board came only because of the action of the TalkBoard. It was there discussion and eventual vote there stirred me to create the forum. True, some requests were there before, but I just lack the time to make everything hapopen and the TB serves to sometime kick me in the ... to get something done.
Fact #2: Why the 'timing'? Simple, Because of travel, time away from the board, etc. it may take several weeks for a 'final' vote tally to be conducted. A few may vote right away with a few coming later because they were elsewhere or traveling or on vacation. These things do happen in the common lives of all travelers. Anyway, as soon as i saw that the 'majority of members had voted positively on this issue, I went ahead and created the forum, knowing that even with the following votes to come being negative, a 'majority' had already voted to confirm the forum and I just happen to have a few minutes to spare and better to get it done when i had those minutes than perhaps running the risk of weeks or months later.
Hard to believe when I did that there would be any - and I mean any - discussion to the contrary. Hell, the action by the board I assume was coming from members and it was only enhancing the traffic on FT.
Fact #3: In my mind, my actions to finally get it done were the direct result of the actions of the TalkBoard.
Fact #4: I made the decision to not elect a new President. This was the first time that we had a turnover of members and I kind of liked the idea that Cigarman and an election would contribute to sort of an even keel approach to this second election. True, he's bigger than I and can probably whip me in a debate, but he's been very reasonable in any discussions we've had. Most important - he has kept every word he has made to me, and in trying to seek input and continuity, that more than almost anything is quite important to me. So please don't hold the Board or anyone else hostage on these types of things. Judgments have been made and if wrong, I'll accept the responsibility. But sincerely, I'm not seeing anything about AirTran that deserves this thread and will still point out that I personally think oz and ScottC owe the Board an apology. But that's just me thinking...
Dec 22, 2003, 3:46 pm
#39
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Well, based on this I of course do owe the Talkboard an apology for thinking they didn't have any input in this, but in my opinion the time frame between the idea and the posting of the results was still much too long, and is certainly something the Talkboard should work on.
I know we all travel, have lives and work hard, but from initial query to vote posting in 6 weeks isn't impressive and I can only hope that efficienty and communication is something they will work on.
I know we all travel, have lives and work hard, but from initial query to vote posting in 6 weeks isn't impressive and I can only hope that efficienty and communication is something they will work on.
Dec 23, 2003, 7:34 am
#40
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Agreed and fully understand, the time frame is too long, but having observed and worked with this over time, it might give some an idea of why the Board operates as it does. I always try and operate under the good graces that I am asking time from individuals who already have full lives. It will always be my hope that volunteers don't feel I ask too much. I've been witnesss to far too many situations where others work volunteers as full-time employees. I am trying to not make that mistake.
Dec 25, 2003, 1:41 am
#41
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Randy - been traveling with mimnimal computer access, and have just seen this whilst sitting up in La Paz Bolivia on Christmas Day with a giddy head from altitude effects.
On the sequence of events re Air Tran you outline - if I misread that - and I was not alone it seems, I'll certainly apolgise for canning the TB for apparently taking months to vote on something you had already approved. There are many excellent FT'ers on there and I would not like to imply there are not. All I was posting was based on the facts as were evident to me (and others) - and clearly they were not all the facts. So apologies to TB for misreading them and commenting thus.
I am still waiting by the same token for some signs of leadership and basic good manners from Cigarman to likewise withdraw (and in a wild stretch of the impossible to apologise for) his totally uncalled for and IMO TOS breaching comments above re myself.
This is the third request by me for him to do so on this thread. He as usual seems to feel he is above the TOS standards required of other Flyertalkers. If that is so, that is also your call, and accept it.
My personal opinion, which I believe I am entitled to hold, is that he is a less than desireable person to head TalkBoard given the many superb members of the new board. The still published FT guidelines clearly state a new President shall be elected by TB within 2 weeks.
You have it seems changed that requirement, and that is your perfect right. However until your post here no-one (outside TB anyway) had a clue of this decision AFAIK, hence the many (and there HAVE been many) calls over recent months for WHERE was the new Election result for President. His swaggering 'Presidente for Life' boast may well hold true.
When I look at the stream of wise and diplomatic and highly talented folks who have left TB voluntarily I am further bemused, as I have read many of their reasons. One such outline is on the first page of this thread and is hardly complimentary.
What Cigarman posts as a FT'er under his handle I could not care less, as that is none of my business and I seldom pay much attention to his posts anyway. But what he posts and has usually posted in his role as TB president, heading a TB elected by the rank and file, in my view often shows appalling lack of tact, and class and diplomacy.
Most elected folks anywhere on voluntary boards - whether school related, religious hobby or sports related groups etc, are eventally accountable to those who vote.
Feliz Navided from the high Andes to all.
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~ Glen ~ sipping bubbly from a UA 747-400 exit row 15 near you SOON!
On the sequence of events re Air Tran you outline - if I misread that - and I was not alone it seems, I'll certainly apolgise for canning the TB for apparently taking months to vote on something you had already approved. There are many excellent FT'ers on there and I would not like to imply there are not. All I was posting was based on the facts as were evident to me (and others) - and clearly they were not all the facts. So apologies to TB for misreading them and commenting thus.
I am still waiting by the same token for some signs of leadership and basic good manners from Cigarman to likewise withdraw (and in a wild stretch of the impossible to apologise for) his totally uncalled for and IMO TOS breaching comments above re myself.
This is the third request by me for him to do so on this thread. He as usual seems to feel he is above the TOS standards required of other Flyertalkers. If that is so, that is also your call, and accept it.
My personal opinion, which I believe I am entitled to hold, is that he is a less than desireable person to head TalkBoard given the many superb members of the new board. The still published FT guidelines clearly state a new President shall be elected by TB within 2 weeks.
You have it seems changed that requirement, and that is your perfect right. However until your post here no-one (outside TB anyway) had a clue of this decision AFAIK, hence the many (and there HAVE been many) calls over recent months for WHERE was the new Election result for President. His swaggering 'Presidente for Life' boast may well hold true.
When I look at the stream of wise and diplomatic and highly talented folks who have left TB voluntarily I am further bemused, as I have read many of their reasons. One such outline is on the first page of this thread and is hardly complimentary.
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">
... if it were only a case of meaningless chest-thumping, self-aggrandizing behavior, I would accept it as the annoying background noise I believe it to be. My concern is that, based on the example the threads above provide, he (Cigarman) is buying his own marketing and believes he is truly crafting the policy and direction of FlyerTalk. There are new members arriving here daily who should not be misled about this.
.... Cigarman seems to believe he has been endowed with some kind of real power. If the power of the TalkBoard Presidency has changed since I was there, and if Cigarman does, in fact, have the power to shape the major decisions of FlyerTalk, I want to know that, because I have no interest in supporting his regime. But I don't believe for a minute that this is the case.
This behavior is an abuse of a relatively meaningless position. And it's an insult to what is a well-meaning and selfless group effort on the part of the other TalkBoard members. </font>
... if it were only a case of meaningless chest-thumping, self-aggrandizing behavior, I would accept it as the annoying background noise I believe it to be. My concern is that, based on the example the threads above provide, he (Cigarman) is buying his own marketing and believes he is truly crafting the policy and direction of FlyerTalk. There are new members arriving here daily who should not be misled about this.
.... Cigarman seems to believe he has been endowed with some kind of real power. If the power of the TalkBoard Presidency has changed since I was there, and if Cigarman does, in fact, have the power to shape the major decisions of FlyerTalk, I want to know that, because I have no interest in supporting his regime. But I don't believe for a minute that this is the case.
This behavior is an abuse of a relatively meaningless position. And it's an insult to what is a well-meaning and selfless group effort on the part of the other TalkBoard members. </font>
Most elected folks anywhere on voluntary boards - whether school related, religious hobby or sports related groups etc, are eventally accountable to those who vote.
Feliz Navided from the high Andes to all.
------------------
~ Glen ~ sipping bubbly from a UA 747-400 exit row 15 near you SOON!
Dec 25, 2003, 7:10 am
#42
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Was there an apology in there?
Dec 25, 2003, 8:14 am
#43
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<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by CameraGuy:
Was there an apology in there?</font>
Was there an apology in there?</font>
I am starting to get a hang of it...pretty easy to predict by now who will sooner or later appear in a thread once someone from "the other party" is involved...
Dec 25, 2003, 9:17 am
#44
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Amusing.
But, how about taking a stab at the question you quoted?
But, how about taking a stab at the question you quoted?
Dec 25, 2003, 2:12 pm
#45
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<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by CameraGuy:
Amusing.
But, how about taking a stab at the question you quoted?</font>
Amusing.
But, how about taking a stab at the question you quoted?</font>
All I would like to say is that I know ozstamps has been contributing a lot of valuable information about cities, hotels, airlines and promotions which I have personally benefitted from. I have not seen similarly valuable info from you yet, Camera Guy. Most posts I have seen from you seemed to be directed at other posters in one way or another. But I might very well have missed your contributions because we might be using different airlines or hotel chains (so that I would not have visited the forums where you contribute), so no offense, please.
Back to the apparent little feud, I personally don't really mind if people keep it going, as I said. Watching certain people achieve nothing but exposing themselves by following other posters around on an Internet message board has somewhat of an entertainment value - even though it is becoming too predictable by now...check the Jerry Springer show scripts...I am still waiting for a bizarre turn of events...like "Camera Guy really is ozstamps" or "avek00 is the CEO of United Airlines".
[This message has been edited by attorney28 (edited Dec 25, 2003).]